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  1. #1
    Hende1ja is offline Registered User
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    Tennessee Temple PhD vs Liberty EdD

    Hello all...I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice. I recently finished my MS in Admin from Central Michigan and was looking at progressing to the doctoral level. I am neck deep in the application process to the Liberty Educational Leadership EdD , but I saw information on the Tennessee Temple program here and am now questioning my path.

    I'm military and plan to retire to either community college teaching or "full time" adjuncting at some of the military friendly schools such as Central Michigan , Central Texas, Troy, UMUC etc.

    With that in mind I'd like some advice on what people think the best path should be. Both programs are within my budget, both have B&M foundations and both have residency requirements that are within my pain threshold.

    The three key points of discussion are: TTU is PhD, TTU allows for a business concentration, but TTU is not regionally accredited.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

  2. #2
    SurfDoctor is offline Moderator
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    Hi Hende1ja, welcome to Degree Info. Why your posts don't show up right away: http://www.degreeinfo.com/distance-l...-posts-go.html

    As for your question, there is really no choice to make if one school is regionally accredited and one is not. You will not be able to teach at almost any college without a RA degree. You have got to go RA if you want to teach at university. It's already tough enough to get a university teaching job with a degree earned online.

    I'm in the EdD program at Liberty and I love it. I would be glad to answer any questions you have about it.
    Last edited by SurfDoctor; 05-12-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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  3. #3
    truckie270 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfDoctor View Post
    There is really no choice to make if one school is regionally accredited and one is not.
    That about solves it.
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  4. #4
    Anthony Pina is offline Registered User
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    If your goals are for the ministry, or teaching in a private Christian school or denominational seminary, then TTU might work fine. However, the differences between a Ph.D. in education and Ed.D. are minimal (if any), but the difference between TRACS and regional accreditation is quite large, when it comes to teaching at colleges and unviersities.
    Anthony Piña, Ed.D.
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  5. #5
    StefanM is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Pina View Post
    If your goals are for the ministry, or teaching in a private Christian school or denominational seminary, then TTU might work fine. However, the differences between a Ph.D. in education and Ed.D. are minimal (if any), but the difference between TRACS and regional accreditation is quite large, when it comes to teaching at colleges and unviersities.
    Ministry, yes. Denominational seminary, probably not.

    Even among Baptist circles, nearly all accredited institutions are going to require regional accreditation for any credentials. A person might find a job as an administrator, but teaching would be highly unlikely, especially considering that the field of the PhD is not theological. Of course, there may be some option in unaccredited schools, but for these you are almost better off getting an honorary or bogus credential :).

  6. #6
    Anthony Pina is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by StefanM View Post
    Ministry, yes. Denominational seminary, probably not.

    Even among Baptist circles, nearly all accredited institutions are going to require regional accreditation for any credentials. A person might find a job as an administrator, but teaching would be highly unlikely, especially considering that the field of the PhD is not theological. Of course, there may be some option in unaccredited schools, but for these you are almost better off getting an honorary or bogus credential :).
    You are correct, I should have been more specific in my use of the term "seminary," since there are many regionally accredited seminaries like Fuller. I was thinking more along the lines of the unaccredited bible colleges and seminaries.
    Anthony Piña, Ed.D.
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  7. #7
    StefanM is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Pina View Post
    You are correct, I should have been more specific in my use of the term "seminary," since there are many regionally accredited seminaries like Fuller. I was thinking more along the lines of the unaccredited bible colleges and seminaries.
    That makes sense. I'm sure "Billy Bob's Baptist Bootcamp" would accept any and all degrees, accredited or otherwise! :p

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  9. #8
    Garp is offline Registered User
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    I think that may be true but more so because of the PhD focus (leadership) than the school or TRACS. I generally agree with your premise but TTU and Temple Baptist Seminary seem to have a fair amount of respect.

    Regionally accredited schools seem to have a bit more flexibility when it comes to acceptance of different types of degrees (eg a number now will accept Nationally accredited degrees as meeting entrance requirements). Thomas Ice was or is faculty at an RA University and he has an unaccredited PhD though a reputation a good reputation in some circles (WARNING...to READERS....he is a huge exception and is working on an accredited PhD through U of Wales).

    The ones that are harder and in some ways more backward (eg with distance learning) are the ATS schools. According to administrators I have spoken to, ATS really frowns and I mean really on them accepting unaccredited degrees. I know of a couple of RA schools that were flexible with people with unaccredited degrees under RA rules but then went for ATS accreditation and had to put a halt to it.

    Of course in terms of accredited schools ATS is a competitor with other National accreditors (though MOST ATS schools also hold RA). ATS does have a more well developed reputation (been around longer) than the other national religious accreditors.

    If you get a PhD in Leadership from TTU, you do so because you want an accredited PhD that is affordable and available mostly by DL from a bricks and mortar school. You do not get it with a view to necessarily going to work for a State U as a tenured prof any more than you would getting a Regionally accredited PhD from Northcentral and hope to be a tenured prof at State U. You may end up at other Nationally accredited schools just as I have seen NCU doctoral grads at DETC accredited schools.
    Last edited by Garp; 05-13-2011 at 09:40 PM.

  10. #9
    Ted Heiks is offline Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garp View Post
    Of course in terms of accredited schools ATS is a competitor with other National accreditors (though MOST ATS schools also hold RA).
    ATS is professional accreditation, not national accreditation. There is a BIG difference between the two.
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  11. #10
    Garp is offline Registered User
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    Ted, I was using the language of CHEA which lists ATS as a National Accrediting agency. I believe you ARE correct that at one time the US Dept of Ed did label them professional accreditation (think in the same category as ABA and APA). I looked now and ATS is listed on the US Dept of Ed site as a specialized accrediting agency along with Association of Schools of Dance, etc. Association of Theological Schools is specifically listed under Community and Social Services.
    College Accreditation in the United States-- Pg 7

    TRACS on the other hand is listed in the category of Regional and National Institutional Accrediting Agencies
    College Accreditation in the United States-- Pg 6

    In terms of CHEA. Both ATS and TRACS are categorized as National Faith Related Accrediting Organizations
    CHEA: Directory of Faith-Related Accrediting Organizations (2009-2010)

  12. #11
    Rabbi13 is offline Registered User
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    A few other options to consider...

    (1) Ed.D. from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) in NC.
    (2) Ph.D. in leadership from Lancaster Bible College in PA.
    (3) Ed.d. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) in KY (relaunched for summer 2012).
    (4) Ph.D. in leadership from SEBTS.
    (5) Ph.D. in leadership from SBTS.
    (6) Ed.D. or Ph.D. in educational leadership from Talbot Theological Seminary.

    All programs do not require relocation though the seminaries do require about 24 credit hours of theology/bible.

    Liberty is an excellent choice. I would stay away from TTU. They lost their SACS accreditation though they have TRACS accreditation. They are not where they use to be about 20 years ago.

    David A. McGee
    Ed.D. (in progress) SEBTS
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  13. #12
    Garp is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi13 View Post
    A few other options to consider...

    (1) Ed.D. from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) in NC.
    (2) Ph.D. in leadership from Lancaster Bible College in PA.
    (3) Ed.d. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) in KY (relaunched for summer 2012).
    (4) Ph.D. in leadership from SEBTS.
    (5) Ph.D. in leadership from SBTS.
    (6) Ed.D. or Ph.D. in educational leadership from Talbot Theological Seminary.

    All programs do not require relocation though the seminaries do require about 24 credit hours of theology/bible.

    Liberty is an excellent choice. I would stay away from TTU. They lost their SACS accreditation though they have TRACS accreditation. They are not where they use to be about 20 years ago.

    David A. McGee
    Ed.D. (in progress) SEBTS
    Th.M. DTS
    SBTS is an excellent choice AND I think cheaper for SBaptists that for other students. Biggest thing is that they are RA as are the other schools you mention.

    TTU just graduated its first seven PhD students and had their largest graduating class since 2005. I saw no mention in Wikipedia of them having been SACS or losing it. Are you sure you are correct (was this years ago)? I only recall them being ABHE (or whatever the initials are). I do seem to recall them went through some tough times at one point with decreasing enrollment and they then cut their seminary loose (according to someone I spoke to at the seminary). Since getting on better footing they have come back together with the seminary.

    In any case, TTU's PhD is affordable and seem flexible and accredited. However, would I choose an RA school such as David mentions all things being equal.....YES simply for utility.

  14. #13
    Rabbi13 is offline Registered User
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    I stand corrected. TTU never had SACS accreditation. It was the Tennessee Board of Regents office that withdrew certification for their education program in late 90's or early 2000's. This was a major blow to their education program because Tenn. certification has reciprocity with many states.

  15. #14
    farmboy is offline Registered User
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    Is there ever a good reason to choose a school with lesser accreditation or no CHEA approved accreditation?

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  17. #15
    major56 is offline Registered User
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    If a TRACS accredited degree is sufficient, the OP might too consider:
    Bob Jones University: EdD (C&I) Business Management.

    “Students who have completed 24 or more hours of graduate level subject matter course work in another field at another institution prior to enrolling in this program may petition to have the field declared as their concentration. Up to 21 hours of credit from BJU's Center for Distance Learning may be applied with a minimum of 24 hours of residence work at BJU.” I expect that the Bob Jones degree might be recognized more so than TTU.

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  18. #16
    PilgrimPastor is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hende1ja View Post
    Hello all...I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice. I recently finished my MS in Admin from Central Michigan and was looking at progressing to the doctoral level. I am neck deep in the application process to the Liberty Educational Leadership EdD , but I saw information on the Tennessee Temple program here and am now questioning my path.

    I'm military and plan to retire to either community college teaching or "full time" adjuncting at some of the military friendly schools such as Central Michigan , Central Texas, Troy, UMUC etc.

    With that in mind I'd like some advice on what people think the best path should be. Both programs are within my budget, both have B&M foundations and both have residency requirements that are within my pain threshold.

    The three key points of discussion are: TTU is PhD, TTU allows for a business concentration, but TTU is not regionally accredited.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
    I am a current D.Min. student with TTU (TBS). I have only one course remaining this fall and then I'll be working to complete my project (dissertation) in the Fall of 2012. There has been some discussion at TTU about the possability of incorporating at least a large portion of the coursework from the D.Min. into the Ph.D. in Leadership. I don't think how much of it has been settled and who knows if it will even happen for sure, but it seems likely that at least a portion of it will transfer.

    I have a few education dollars hanging out there to be used and while I will soon have a terminal degree well suited for my work in ministry, I am considering the Ph.D. in Leadership as well, after I get through the D.Min. requirements of course. My undergraduate and Master Degree(s) are from Liberty , so I am at least familiar with both schools.

    I'm wrestling with the same question, well light wrestling, more like arm wrestling with one of my young sons... :) ... over whether to do anything further at all. I don't really NEED another degree. What I NEED is more sleep. But its tough to let money that could be used for education just evaporate because of a deadline to use it. Depending on what you want to do with the degree, I think the obvious choice for teaching at the college level is the Ed.D. fro m Liberty . BUT if the Ph.D. will help you in a business career (as you seem to have implied) then my question is whether secular employers care very much or know very much about the difference between SACS (Regional) and TRACS (National / Christian) accreditation?

    At the end of the day they are both federally accredited (regardless of some high nosed intellectuals think of TRACS... My humble but very biased opinion...) and they are both from Christian institutions. As far as convenience TTU beats Liberty hands down. the Ph.D. in Leadership has been restructured to only necessitate ONE visit to Chattanooga... JUST ONE...While, I am pretty sure at least that none of Liberty 's Doctorates allow for that few.

    TTU has had some change and a little bad press of late with Dr. Danny Lovett resinging, BUT I spoke on the phone with the Seminary VP as recently as last week and I can vouch (I know you don't know me very well either... Chris Surber tells my story at least) that there are some solid scholars on campus, a GREAT new president in Dr. Jim O'Niell, and a great vision for the future. The curriculum is strong, at least as strong as Liberty 's, and they are smaller which allows you to actually know the professors. If I had it to do over, I would have transferred to TTU sooner than I did and finished my M.Div. with them after doing the M.A. with Liberty .
    B.S., M.A.R., M.Div., D.Min.
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