Is A College Degree As Important As It Used To Be? Google Says No

Discussion in 'IT and Computer-Related Degrees' started by BMWGuinness, Jun 21, 2013.

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  1. BMWGuinness

    BMWGuinness New Member

    Jobs At Google - Importance Of College Degrees

     
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    This isn't unique to Google. I didn't have a Bachelor's degree until I was past thirty. It was all tech jobs and startups for me until then, and no one in either category seemed very concerned about it.
     
  3. CavTrooper

    CavTrooper Member

    I think it all depends on the industry you want to go into - my brother's construction company will hire new kids barely out of high school and start them at like $14 an hour, then train them and end up paying them around $16-$18 an hour; obviously a degree isn't a factor. Tech is very heavy on certifications vs. a degree. My friend works as a DoD contractor and his clearance and tech certs are far more valuable than a degree (he doesn't even have an AS at this point). I wouldn't underestimate the importance of a degree though - I think construction, tech, and a few other industries are the exception.
     
  4. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    I agree with Steve. The IT industry is one of the most progressive and it has not traditionally cared a whole heck of a lot about degrees. I did fine until my mid thirties with no degree and just some college under my belt. I pursue degrees now for personal enrichment, to increase my general knowledge, and sharpen my reasoning and communication skills.
     
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I was looking to get into social services, and a degree is required for about 95% of the job openings I've seen. Some of these jobs pay as little as $12 an hour. I'm also looking into getting into law enforcement, and I think the field is trending toward requiring more education.
     
  6. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    IT, in my less than knowledgeable opinion, has enjoyed tremendous innovation and growth due to an absence of "group think" and the "silo effect" that highly structured university courses have created in other professions. In essence, they are not educated into what they cannot do so they experiment and test out ideas that would be discarded in other industries because of the professional education that limits possibilities. A blended workforce reduces that prospect of group think and allows the possibility that something might be developed that was deemed professionally unworkable. This may be a strategy by industry to reduce the risk of bounded thinking.

    I recall reading that a General in the Battle of the Wilderness in the US Civil War used cavalry successfully in a wooded area because he did not know that cavalry could not be used in that way. Singapore fell to the Japanese in WW2, because the British knew that nobody could come through that jungle. Unfortunately, the Japanese had not read the same book. "Lorenzo's Oil" is another example. The inventor was not formally educated in medicine so therefore it must not work, except it did. The list goes on.

    Institutionally induced bounded thinking may be a significant risk to the innovation that creates market leadership. You guard against the risk by employing people who come from without the institutionalized base to prevent group think. Another example, relevant to this board, is that the early college entrants into distance and online learning were not from traditional academia. Traditional academia threw rocks at distance learning until the market shifted by its own volition. They were dragged to it by the demand for it. They did not lead, they followed. It is a very brave company that does not attempt to be at the leading edge in this current environment.

    Law enforcement in this country is now going for the blended workforce to prevent the prospect of a class dominance that undermines the policing legitimacy. Minorities may be less represented in universities and therefore there is less opportunity to recruit them. This should not be interpreted as a rejection of university educated people, just a realization that reliance upon a single source of expertise has inherent risks that need to be guarded against. A differential recruiting policy may do this. Somebody has to be there to say that "the emperor has no clothes on"
     
  7. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    "the importance of job experience and critical-thinking skills over traditional classroom training seems to be increasing in several different fields"

    I don't think this is anything new. I think job experience almost always trumps a degree when it comes to who gets hired. A degree probably opens more doors. This is how it's been in most places I've worked. There are some jobs that do require a degree.

    It would be interesting how many Google new hires without a degree had no experience or less than a year of experience versus how many had three or more years of experience. I bet the latter.
     
  8. novadar

    novadar Member

    Of course this is the key, experience and knowledge. In IT especially there is little concern for the most part on "what" degree when it is an issue at all. It simply becomes a checkbox and for those who can demonstrate the right skills (along with real references who will actually vouch for the person) even the fact of not having a degree can be overcome.
     
  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    At the risk of bringing current events into the discussion I'd like to point out that Edward Snowden was making approximately 200K per year in the IT industry before he decided to end his career. He had no college degree of any kind. I suppose that if you think you're that smart and are willing to work that hard than you too can succeed without a degree. However, please be aware that overall the odds are against you.
     
  10. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    He might have had a security clearance from his time in the military. That greatly increases the chance of getting a job with a defense contractor.
     
  11. novadar

    novadar Member

    I believe we worked his way into the CIA having experience as a security guard or professional there. Once he had CIA on his resume and the requisite clearance, he was all clear.
     
  12. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    This bloke becomes a "whistleblower" or traitor, depending on your viewpoint, because he believes the US has trampled on people's rights? He flees to China, the home of ethical regard for human rights. Isn't that analogous to exposing some people for eating meat, then moving with in a tribe of cannibals?

    I won't discuss my thoughts on the merits of his case as it is a US issue, but, if it was here, I would be questioning the recruiting process to see if we had recruited a foreign agent at the outset. It looks to me a little similar to Philby and Co in the mid 20th century. It would be interesting to see where the expertise that made him a "wiz kid" was obtained and how his resume was built. Just a risk management exercise of course, not presuming guilt. Oops, my cynicism is showing so best to leave it here.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    If he'd gone to Beijing I'd agree. But he went to Hong Kong, whose people have maintained autonomy and a tradition of respect for civil liberties even while coming under Chinese rule.

    But now it seems he's in Moscow on his way to... unknown. If it's Iceland, then I think that's in keeping with his ideals. If it's somewhere like Cuba or Venezuela, well, not so much.
     
  14. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

  15. novadar

    novadar Member

  16. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    There are several things wrong with this article. It focuses mostly on outliers who have become billionaires. It also says that the Soviet Union's economy collapsed even though it had 10X as many engineers as the U.S. Maybe that had something to do with how the country's economy was set up. Other than that, I do believe that companies can train most liberal arts majors to do a variety of jobs in business. Liberal arts majors tend to have higher IQs than general business majors anyway.

    I wouldn't go as far as to say that no job requires a college degree. I think most healthcare jobs require a degree. Yes, in the past, most people learned their medical professions through apprenticeships. We also weren't very advanced in medicine, so it's hard to compare the quality of the workers. However, I doubt you're going to find anyone these days who would want to train a nurse, physician's assistant, medical doctor, or any other healthcare professional for several years. Companies these days don't even want to spend a few weeks training college graduates for entry-level jobs. I looked into becoming a midwife and gave up on that idea when I found out that one would have to pay a preceptor thousands of dollars.

    Outside of IT where you can somewhat prove your skills through certifications, most white-collar professions require a degree to filter out those who they believe aren't cognitively able to perform well in a job.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2013
  17. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    I am not so sure that this is necessarily the case outside of the US. Admittedly, the medical profession is about degrees because of the expensive nature of the education, it would be unlikely to find that base level entry to the profession being undertaken outside of the university setting. I don't think that the university applies so much to specialist training which seems to take the form more in line of an apprenticeship in a hospital within the constraints and demands of a professional body.

    Outside the US, in the UK and my country, you tend to find that many white collar jobs can be obtained by a form of apprenticeship and the completion of a professional body's examination. This was being eroded substantially to bring in line with the US model e.g. lawyers are now university trained and do not usually sit for Law Society examinations and do articles etc. The degree is being eroded by technical colleges who are offering Advanced Diplomas and Vocational Graduate Diplomas that compete with university degrees in the marketplace.

    I have noted that industry is starting to grab the people with either of those qualifications, sometimes instead of university graduates. I suspect the reason for the industry pickup is that the training is very much at "hands on" level and a minimum amount of training is needed from the company.

    I did argue in a thread relatively recently that big IT companies like Google will get into the training market and present a threat to universities. There were diverse views on that and very few agreed with me, but I think there is a shift towards alternative qualifications. I think that the IT profession reopened the doors on alternatives to degrees. It will be interesting to see how far it goes.
     
  18. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    Steve, I am not sure that China does not exert gentle pressure very quietly on the former colony. My son just came back from HK and said that this is very big news there, unlike here where almost nobody knows about it. He was being portrayed as a hero there apparently. without knowing the inside workings of the CIA, I would think that he may have significantly damaged some of its operations. Whether he is hero or villain is a discussion for Americans, not me.

    I think that China would retaliate against the US for the accusations of cyber spying. This was, in Australian slang, "a free kick". When Australia did not let China buy into an Australian company. China promptly arrested an official from that company in China and accused him of spying. I think he is still in custody there. They aren't above retaliation. I agree it will be very telling where he ends up.

    I still think that HK was an interesting choice, even though they are enjoying a less controlled society. A lot of "sabre rattling" going on in the Northern Pacific at the moment and it is not all North Korea. You guys will get caught in the middle of it as no doubt we will.
     
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Are you sure? Do you really think the American's aren't cataloguing Australian communications? Or that Snowden doesn't set a precedent for whistleblowers who might reveal details of the Australian government's mass surveillance programmes?
     
  20. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    I am sure that they are monitoring our mostly uninteresting phone calls, along with the Chinese and probably half a dozen others. It must busy in that optic fiber! No wonder that sometimes the internet speed is slow! I am not shocked or surprised. I imagine that US agencies have been tracking outside countries for years before they started on the US. I doubt that they had much to learn to do it internally.

    This does not mean that I like it, but I live with that reality. I thought that the US had been cataloging telephone calls in the UK for decades with the consent of the UK govt. You have to remember Prince Charles's telephone conversation with Camilla being released to the media. I mean if he cannot have a private conversation on his telephone what hope do I have?

    This is the classic case of the greater good. Is it acceptable to open up the country to risk to protect it from an internal risk? Can't one be addressed without increasing the risk in the other? We already have one of our nationals sequestered in the Ecuadorian Embassy for releasing information through his media outlet. There has been plenty of time to address this issue with positive public policy. Some sort of ombudsman for example? Perhaps a standing Parliamentary Committee?

    Snowden has a major issue with the US seeking his extradition. Perhaps even a bigger risk is non US third party intelligence agencies who may fear Snowden will or has compromised their operations in some way. They will not be seeking his extradition but may seek to remove the risk in a less judicial manner. The current process criminalizes the whistleblower, opens up the risk of third party retaliation as well as public safety risks. How can that be good? I do not think the use of a "megaphone" from inside a potentially rival state (HK is still China) is the way to do it. He has endangered and exiled himself, and perhaps increased the risk to public safety. A US strength is its open government and judicial system. Get him to a jury and let them decide. Perhaps 95 percent of the world would have already ordered his demise without any questioning about it. You guys use law and debate to fix things which is one of your strengths.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2013

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