Beware of Discrete Math I from Southwest Texas State University

If you're considering taking Discrete Math I from Southwest Texas State University by correspondence study, you might want to examine the course materials BEFORE paying the tuition. This little precaution might save you a lot of aggravation and money.

The course consists of eight lessons, the first four based exclusively on a book (actually, a booklet about 1/4-inch thick that cost $5.40) entitled Dr. Early's Discrete Math written by one of the university's previous faculty members and published by Southwest Texas State University's publishing department. Because I haven't got the time, and out of fairness to the university, I won't enumerate the many reasons that make it a very unfortunate choice as a textbook, but will only reemphasize that it would behoove prospective students to sneak a peek at it BEFORE signing up for the class to make up their own minds about it first. Just my two cents' worth.


Sincerely,

A student who's done with correspondence courses forever and who will be taking a TRADITIONAL Calculus for Business and Economics course in the Spring instead.


P.S. I'm posting this here because discrete mathematics or calculus I is required to complete Excelsior College's Computer Information Systems degree.

 

I took a college algebra correspondence course from Columbia Union College several years ago and they used a standard college algebra textbook. It is well over an inch thick.

While the once class I had at the University of Phoenix was a joke, the algebra class I had at Columbia Union College was extremely difficult for the following reasons:

1. I had no mentor or teacher to explain difficulties that I encountered.

2. Every chapter was covered in the curriculum. There was no ”skipping unnecessary chapters” that the professor didn’t want to cover. Subsequently, I had to read every single page of that book. Reading an algebra book is not like reading any other book. In a history book, you can skip the first three chapters and it will not interfere with your ability to understand the remaining 15 chapters. Don’t try that in college algebra!!!

3. It’s the only class I’ve ever had that made me sweat (math is my weakest subject). While sitting in a comfortable recliner, I uncomfortably sweated while studying. It was the middle of winter and I would turn off the heat and open the door and I would still be sweating!!! As soon as I quit studying, the sweating stopped. It was remarkable because I could duplicate this feat at the snap of your fingers.

4. Columbia Union College gives the student one year to complete their courses. It took me 365 days to complete it. I finished the book down to the wire. I was counting the days and made it by…….. One day!

Some external colleges might be easy (like UoP), but Columbia Union College was very hard. However, I’m very proud that I did it!

 

Actually, I am currently taking this course myself, and it is pretty much what I expected from a college mathematics course (beyond algebra) taken through correspondence. I would prefer that the course were updated to use the more recent version of the textbook (which the residential version of the course at SWT uses), but other than that it isn't giving me any problems. It does suck to have to buy the text when only a few chapters are used from it, but Dr. Early's publication is very reasonably priced, so the total cost for books isn't bad. I feel that the correspondence study guide (provided when you register for the course) which supplements the texts does a reasonable job of filling in the gaps. I'm curious what exactly gave you so much trouble.

Consider that, due to individual learning styles and aptitudes, some people probably are not well suited for taking a college mathematics course through correspondence. You may just be better suited for taking a course residentially or online, where you can receive more feedback and ask questions easier. Personally, when I took Calculus I & II (unrelated to this course) residentially at Purdue, I did not feel any need to attend further after receiving the syllabus at the first lecture. Thus it seems that my learning style for this type of material is pretty well suited for correspondence study.

The course fee is very reasonable (a little over $200), and SWT does give you 30 days to request a refund, so you really aren't in danger of having them keep your money immediately after registration, as you implied. They also give you 12 months to complete the course, and you can get an additional 6 month extension for $35.

Anyway, I just wanted to provide another perspective. I feel that this course meets the needs of people who are well suited for taking college math courses through correspondence, and I am very happy that I was able to find a Discrete Math course being offered at all, let alone for such a reasonable fee. BTW, I am using this course to satisfy the requirement for Discrete Math or Linear Algebra in my Computer Science major at TESC.

 

Actually, I have had success with other mathematics correspondence courses. Years ago, for example, I received an "A" in an Intermediate Algebra correspondence course from Utah State. It was an excellent experience. I didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't give Southwest Texas State University's discrete math course a chance, and I apologize if the smart #@* ending to my message is giving people that impression. That wasn't my goal. But, your positive experience notwithstanding, I still believe people should be "cautious" of this course--buy the text beforehand as I suggested or, at the very least, keep a close eye on that 30-day time limit. I don't expect ANY college course (traditional or nontraditional) to be easy; only a complete scumbag would want a good grade handed to him. But, the choice of a textbook is especially important in a correspondence course and I sincerely believe that Southwest Texas State University made a mistake by including this one in their discrete math correspondence course.

By the way, I've been discussing all this with the course's instructor via e-mail and he has intimated to me that he, too, thinks the course could be a lot better, that he's recently rewritten the study guide, that he plans to replace the Early text with his own, if necessary, etc. He seems sincere, and this course will probably be quite good someday. Keep an eye on it!

 

I have to admit that anything mathematical has always been very easy for me, so it is possible that most people would have trouble with this course. Also, I've been writing computer programs for about 20 years, so many of these basic concepts are already familiar to me. In fact, I took this course rather than Linear Algebra because it seemed that I would have a big head start on the material (i.e. it would be "easy" for me). Then again, we'll have to see what grade I end up with.

You will probably find a Calculus I for Business course to be easier to swallow, but if you are planning to do much programming, especially at a low level, the material in a Discrete Math course is probably a lot more relevant. Unless you are planning to write graphics engine type stuff, that is, in which case you'd want to take a lot more math anyway.

Don't get me wrong, the course could be revised to be much better, it's just that I think, for the type of course that it is, it isn't as bad as you made it seem. I do agree that the textbook could be a lot better. The least they could do is update the course so that they use the most recent edition, as is used in the residential version of the course. Bear in mind that I'm only about halfway through the course, but it doesn't seem that the text is really used much anyway. Maybe I just haven't gotten to the part that really sucks.

 

According to Ken Lewchuk and Walter Rogers, one man's meat could be another man's poison. It worked well for Gary but it did not work for you. You have to also recognize that what works for you may not work Gary. It happens all the time.

 

According to Ken Lewchuk and Walter Rogers, one man's meat could be another man's poison. It worked well for Gary but it did not work for you. You have to also recognize that what works for you may not work for Gary. It happens all the time.

 

I know what you mean, but I really suspect that there's more to it than just that in this case. Let me add some more information. In addition to the measures that I mentioned before (rewriting the study guide, textbook, etc.) the instructor is also considering including a special attention-grabbing sheet to warn correspondence students of how bad the text is, and a specific list of the parts to read or a text outtake that blacks out the "bad" stuff until his or someone else's book replaces Early's text (this is all practically a direct quote from his e-mail; I'm not making this stuff up!). Now, I ask you, would this instructor be going through all this trouble just because one student in the class is having trouble? Hardly!

Gary, mathematics comes easy to you, and I've always be envious of people like you, but I strongly suspect that your experience with this class is the exception and not the rule.

 

Of course, what I'm on about is the "Dr. Early Discrete Math" booklet only. I haven't even used the "Discrete Mathemathics and Its Applications" textbook by Rosen, so, if it's got problems, too, that's a whole 'nuther story.

 

I used the fourth edition in the Discrete Mathematics course I took from Lakeland College Online last summer. In my opinion, the book is well-written and the examples illustrate well the various concepts presented.

By way of background information, the most advanced math course I've completed to-date is Analytic Geometry and Calculus I (on-campus).

Lowell Kinzer

 

Why not go to a used bookstore and buy at least one other discrete math textbook? You can find older editions of college textbooks many places, being sold for almost nothing.

That way you can use the little $5.40 thing that SW Texas State sends you for the problem sets, and use both it and the additional materials that you supply yourself to provide explanations of the theory, worked examples and stuff.

I used to do that when I was taking math on-campus. When I was taking calculus, I would sometimes get bogged down, unable to solve a particular kind of problem. The assigned text would just kind of skip over the step that was mystifying me. But a different text might have a worked example or something that illustrated it well.

(Often my problem was that I was forgetting some elementary algebra principle. It had been many years since I'd studied that stuff.)

So if I were you, I'd treat the little book the school provides like a transcription of class notes. And then I'd look for the most complete and fully explanatory textbook that I could find. Since you are studying math by correspondence, you are missing much of the guidance of an instructor and the ability to ask questions and interact. So you would do well to seek an unusually complete textbook.

 

I’ve had the following math (or similar) external classes:
1. College Algebra (hard -- swung a B).
2. Quantitative Methods (really hard -- swung a B).
3. Statistics (easy -- swung a B).

 

Yeah, I know ... a little late to be adding to this thread.

Oddly enough, I have Rosen's 3rd ed. within arm's reach right now. It's a great book and I refer to it a few times a year just to refresh my memory and keep the synapses firing. (And I'm a geek...)

If I had to recommend one course to someone considering a career in computer science or mathematics, it would be discrete mathematics. The prerequisites are few and it gives one a great introduction into the thought processes required to construct computer programs and mathematical proof.

Calculus is fun and more practical, but students generally only get exposure to the rigor of proof in this sequence when they're in the math major or honors track. That's why some comp sci. majors get a rude awakening during the first few weeks of discrete math ...

Pete

 

from the instructor ...

The course has been revised and updated to incorporate the most recent edition of Rosen. I still use the Early text for the first two lessons (the other standard, well-established text is the backbone of the remaining lessons) as there is no single other text that covers this material that is need for any machine architecture studiesRosen covers complementary subtraction in one exercise, not enough practice for the majority of USA students. Dr. Early's text may be confusing to some, but this is not easy material to describe; what do you expect for $5.50? Any student who has difficulty with the text *and asked me for help* has received personal assistance in the matter either via e-mail or phone call; the updated study guide covers points of the Early text that have raised any questions from my correspondence students. Out of 51 current students, and the over 200 students who have completed this course, "jester" is the only one who has complained rather than seeking help from me. BTW, extra books can be helpful, but it doesn't hurt checking with the instructor FIRST before buying other books or complaining - who knows, the instructor may even be helpful! This is the only correspondence course on Discrete Math that I am aware of and I (and SWT) maintain it as a unique service for those who feel capable to attempt the challenge.

 

Oh, god...life is too short for this type of thing. Listen, all I did was complain about a course that I sincerely believe to be substandard and warn others that they should be cautious about it, that's all. It wasn't some sinister campaign to muddy-up the water for SWT University. No conspiracy here. I didn't say that SWT University's programs stink; I didn't say that their discrete math course or all its other distance courses should be avoided under all circumstances, etc., etc. Just an altruistic post warning fellow students and other nontraditional learners like myself that they should evaluate the course first before signing up, if possible, and/or keep a close eye on the tuition refund policy. Just the electronic equivalent to a traditional student innocently warning another student to avoid this or that teacher. No harm in that. I didn't think anyone was going to go ballistic about it. (...jester is the only one to complain?! ...for those who are capable?!) Man, if you can't take professional criticism, ask your health care provider to DOUBLE your doses of Prozac! Furthermore, just because I was the only student to complain about your course so far doesn't mean that some of the other students don't feel the same way. For your information, the average student is used to being cowed around and will put up with a tremendous amount of BS in their educational expediencies and stay silent so it's a mistake to assume that yours or any program doesn't need tweaking just because no one speaks up. Another reason the average student won't speak up is that they're used to educators greedily taking their tuition money and then turning around and arrogantly providing the service that they're getting paid to provide like they're doing the student a favor. As for me, I'm not average in this regard because a poorly designed correspondence course just happens to be one of my pet peeves, that's all. I believe in the format and it annoys me when I sign up for a course only to find out that it has been hastily put together. What do I expect for $5.50? Not much, and that's exactly what I got with the textbook that you choose to incorporate into your course, but if you're asking the question, it only means that you're missing the point. A good textbook is absolutely essential in a distance course and if one isn't available, don't offer the course by distance format at all until one IS available, that's what I'm on about. Given the choice, I'd rather pay $70, $80, or $90 for a professionally prepared textbook that does a good job instead of $5.95 for one that's a joke.

Anyway, I'm done. You can respond to get the last word if that'll make you feel better but, as for me, I'm moving on with my life. This incapable dimwit as you seemed to be trying to suggest between the lines in your response got an IT job two weeks ago that pays a little over $60,000 a year; that plus my military retirement, I'm laughing all the way to the bank and there's nothing that you can say to bring me down. I'M ON TOP OF THE WORLD! Anyway, I did a good thing: I complained about the course, I got you to admit to me in e-mail that even YOU thought the course needed revising, the course has apparently been revised in response to MY complaint, (if it was in such a perfect state, why then was it revised?!) and according to one of the many e-mails that I received from you-- and still have on file--even inspired you to start writing a book to replace the Early text. I lit the proverbial fire under your butt and got things changed for the better, and that's a good thing. I can live with that!

Lastly, before you start writing the new textbook please keep the following in mind. Just because you're a subject matter expert doesn't mean that you're necessarily qualified to make a textbook. One of the many reasons why real textbooks are so expensive (and by "real" I mean the expensive, glossy, hard-bound books from major publishing houses that students all over complain about the prices of when they come walking out college bookstores, not the sickly tomes written by some lone faculty member and printed by a college's publishing department, like your precious Early text) is because they are put through a very thorough editing and review process by textbook professionals before printing. They don't just take some knucklehead's manuscript and directly turn it into a textbook; they edit the text, eliminate parts that are confusing, offensive, order rewrites to maximize learning, etc. So, what I'm getting at is unless you're going to work with a real publisher, you're probably just going to end up with another text just like Dr. Early's. And, if you still haven't gotten the message, that's a BAD thing. Anyway, that's my two cents' worth.


God Bless,

jester.