BA in 4 Weeks

Discussion in 'CLEP, DANTES, and Other Exams for Credit' started by Scott Henley, Feb 20, 2002.

Loading...
  1. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    I understand how the BA in 4 Weeks works in terms of examinations, and I suppose it is theoretically possible to write all undergraduate examinations in 4 weeks, but what about the other components of baccalaureate education?

    For example, when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I wrote numerous papers, conducted numerous laboratory examinations, conducted site visits to different companies, presented projects, participated in tutorials, etc...

    How is this, which I consider the prime element in learning, captured by a BA in 4 Weeks program?
     
  2. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Scott,

    What is your opinion on master's degree (MBA, MA, MSc.) by examinations only? Don't you think that other components of education are also important in graduate (PG as in U.K) education?
     
  3. Pete

    Pete New Member

    How about ...

    "I'm a working professional without a bachelor's degree. I've written numerous white papers, conducted site visits of my company's subsidiaries, presented the results of my projects to executives and trained new personnel. My laboratory is life. My interests include politics, history, computer science, etc. I'd like to earn a degree."

    Generally, people interested in a non-traditional BA in 4 weeks (or months or years or decades) have the "prime elements" covered.

    Pete
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2002
  4. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Re: Re: BA in 4 Weeks


    Not to sound harsh, but being a working professional without a bachelor's degree may raise questions regarding the level of work experience you have.

    For example, a high school graduate with many years working in the "engineering" field may know how to do his job within a limited scope. Likely he will not be using advanced mathematics or physical sciences to perform his duties. Therefore, his experience can only reach a certain level.

    The same applies for a high school graduate working in the financial industry. He will not be able to apply for high-end methods of financial analysis.

    A degree by examination is fine. It will benefit someone because it requires the mastery of a body of knowledge through study. But there is more to education than reading books and repeating it on exams.

    Typical bachelor's and master's degrees require a final year thesis consisting of a substantial body of knowledge. A person with a high school diploma (or equivalent) with a 4-week BA may have difficulty.
     
  5. Craig

    Craig New Member


    I don't think so. My B.A. is from a major, upper tier public university. There was no thesis required, nor was there one required of most liberal arts degrees there. In fact, when considering universities for my planned major, none of them indicated a need for a thesis, except as an honors option.

    A B.A. with a thesis is atypical, at least here in the United States. I just checked my university's current catalog, and I do not find any requirement for L.A. majors to write a thesis.

    So I don't find that Lawrie's suggested plan is that extraordinary. I think the time frame of 4 weeks is more an attention getter, but Lawrie points out that a normally motivated person would be able to do the exams within a year's time. I consider that more of the norm than the actual 4 weeks.

    Again, folks, this is a liberal arts B.A. It is not a specific discipline oriented degree of sharp focus. It implies a breadth of knowledge, not depth. The B.A. here in the USA is one that emphasizes breadth of knowledge, so that the B.A. degree holder is well-rounded in general knowledge.

    Craig
    B.A., The Pennsylvania State University
    M.Div., Ashland Theological Seminary
     
  6. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Thesis

    Sorry, I was refering to Canada. All undergraduate degrees in Canada require a comprehensive thesis. This thesis is quite substantial and would probably be equivalent to a master's thesis in the United States.
     
  7. Tracy Gies

    Tracy Gies New Member

    Re: Re: Re: BA in 4 Weeks


    I'm not sure how a working professional without a degree raises a question about the level of his work experience. If he doesn't have a degree than he doesn't have that much work experience? How do you figure?

    The examples of high school graduates that you provide don't make sense either. If they have learned advanced mathematics, physical science, and methods of "high-end" financial analysis on the job, then they have learned it. More than that, they've probably applied it to real situations and got to see first hand the results of good or bad application of these subjects. That actually seems better than writing a few papers and taking a test or two. It sounds kind of like education.

    I agree that there may be "more to education than reading books and repeating it on exams." That, however, is a model employed in many traditional college classrooms. The person who has learned a subject well enough on the job to pass a CLEP/DANTES test, or get credit by portfolio assessment has the added advantage of seeing its application in the real world before he gets the degree. That, I'm sure you'll agree, actually adds to the value of his educational experience.

    Craig is right about most undergraduate programs not requiring a thesis. It is a extremely rare at the undergraduate level. I know that at Charter Oak (one of the assessment colleges) degree candidates are required to write a degree proposal and have it approved by a review board before the degree can be granted. Granting of the degree also requires that the student meet other requirements as well, such as their credits meeting the proper general education requirements.

    The degree proposal, I believe, is unique to the assessment colleges. I don't know of any traditional college that requires its students to be able to explain how their degree program fits together as a package and how it will help them meet their goals before they can be awarded the degree. That also seems to add value to the BA in 4 weeks model, and to assessment degrees in general, over the traditional model.

    Now, how's that for a kick in the diploma?

    Tracy<><
     
  8. Pete

    Pete New Member

    Not to sound harsh, but your original point was that somehow so-called prime elements and experiences are lost in the pursuit of a non-traditional BA degree.

    It's common knowledge that the title 'engineer' gets bandied about quite a bit. Those working in true engineering fields are stratified by education and state certification into technicians, technologists, PEs, etc. But then we both digress; it's a BA in 4 Weeks, not a BSEE or BSME in 4 Weeks. Furthermore, it's not like most (if any) engineers spend a significant amount of time scratching their heads over Laplace transforms. Nor would a non degreed financial analyst have to sweat a Black-Scholes calculation during an option call.

    Regarding your "working professional" comment, I'm sure I'm not the only person who is not convinced that a sheepskin doth a white collar make.

    As Craig pointed out, you may be taking Lawrie too literally.

    Pete

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2002
  9. Gary Rients

    Gary Rients New Member

    Re: Thesis

    It sounds as though you're just guessing about this. Can you back up this statement in any way?

    Many US programs have an optional senior thesis/project that is recommended for enhancing acceptance to graduate schools. Most (possibly all) honors programs that I've looked at require one, along with it's presentation. Even in cases where the actual length is similar though, an undergraduate certainly isn't held to quite the same standards as a graduate student, and the work isn't expected to be as original in content.
     
  10. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Scott:


    What do you think about master's degree (MBA, MA, MSc.) by examinations only? Don't you think that other components of education are also important in graduate (PG as in U.K) education?
     
  11. Bernard P. Fife

    Bernard P. Fife New Member

    Mr. Henley

    Sir,
    To the above I can agree to an extent. I do feel however, that the majority of talent will be within the individual.
    I have set a goal to complete a Masters in Marketing.
    Myself, I have been in the Financial Industry for 16 years.
    From Operations, to Credit, to Sales and now a National Manager in Marketing. During my Credit and into my Sales days I had three MBA Grad's. Two with Accounting BS and one with Finance.
    Non Distance but campus natives of higher learning.
    One Pennsylvania, one Illinois, and one Massachusetts.
    Each one an MBA, I the HS grad with not one credit of higher learning at that time, needed to show 3 MBA's how to spread a financial statment. One did not even know how to figure Corporate Net Worth!!!

    Going back, I do have some agreement to your post. Thus the reason I am returning to broaden my scope in Marketing.
    I guess the point.
    When you get your degree, how you get your degree is one thing.
    However, the learning cycle never ends. In today's world and the speed of the future one must be on a continuous education cycle.

    Question: For all who completed HS or College 20+ years ago.
    What do you remember besides the parties?

    Heck,even old Barn had to do a stint in Raleigh before he could qualify for Sheriff!

    Good Day,

    Dave:cool:
     
  12. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    Re: Thesis

    Not necessarily---depends on the programme, and whether or not it's an honours-degree, or a terminal degree with no pgrad study in that particular learner's future. Even with a BA Honours in History, for example, I still would need to take the full MA History degree, with a substantially longer (quality is higher too) thesis than the one written as part of a BA Honours degree.

    My degree, for example, the BHA from Athabasca, has no requirement for a "comprehensive thesis" or "comprehensive paper," although I am given an option to include a "practical" course which can build on much of the same things covered by a thesis.

    Darren.
     
  13. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Re: Re: Thesis

    I assume you are referring to a four-year Canadian BA(Hons) in History in which there is most definately a comprehensive thesis. An ordinary BA may not require a thesis, however, it is only three years in length and not intended as preparation for graduate study.

    I stated that a Canadian BA(Hons) thesis is probably equivalent to an American MA thesis, since American undergraduate programs usually don't have a thesis component. Again, the one step behind thing...

    Athabasca University is a distance-education provider that is not looked upon favorably by the academic community. It is more practically oriented for adults that cannot obtain a traditional full-time degree. Hence, the lack of an undergraduate thesis does not suprise me.
     
  14. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Thesis

    What the hell are you smoking? Any officials that I've run across from campus-based institutions and from two provincial governments (Alberta Learning and Saskatchewan Post Secondary Education and Skills Training) have the highest respect for AU and its programmes. A BA Hons or general 4 year BA is still required for an MA regardless of its source. In the case of an general 4 year BA, some additional coursework is often needed for admission to an MA, regardless of whether it's in Canada or the US. The BA Hons is still a prelude to an MA in the US or Canada, but it's NOT equivalent to a US MA, because a BA Hons or equivalent is required for admission to a graduate programme in many US universities.
    A standard 4 year BA in History, from the University of Saskatchewan, for example, requires:

    MAJOR IN HISTORY (B.A. FOUR-YEAR)

    The minimum requirements for this program are 6 credit units in history at the 100-level (for example HIST 120.6 or HIST 121.3 and 122.3), but only 9 credit units may be taken for credit at the introductory 100-level, and 30 senior credit units, at least 6 credit units of which must be at the 300- or 400-level.

    For honours, it's:

    HONOURS IN HISTORY

    The minimum requirements are:

    A total of 54 credit units in history including: 6 credit units (but a maximum of only 9 credit units may be taken) at the 100-level, at least 6 credit units at the 300- level, and at least 12 credit units at the 400- level.
    At least 18 credit units, approved by the Department, in a cognate subject. Some cognate fields are: Anthropology and Archaeology, Art History, Classics, Drama, Economics, English, a second language (e.g.French, German, Greek, Latin, Russian, Spanish, Ukrainian), Music, Native Studies, Philosophy, Political Studies, Sociology, and Women's and Gender Studies. Other cognate subjects, including the natural and health sciences, may be selected in consultation with the department. Only exceptionally may the cognate program consist of courses in two fields. Eighteen credit units taken to qualify for Recognition in a Language may be used, with the approval of the department, in meeting its cognate requirement.
    Participation in the Honours Colloquium.

    The Masters requires:
    2. Admission

    2.1 The department encourages and welcomes applications from students at all Canadian or foreign universities.

    2.2 Applications for admission should be sent directly to the Department of History. Admission to the College of Graduate Studies and Research occurs upon the departmentís recommendation.

    2.3 Requirements for fully-qualified admission are:

    an Honours B.A. closely related to the proposed graduate work, or equivalent. For admission into the Ph.D. program, applicants must have an M.A. degree in history or its equivalent. Calendar
    evidence of ability to pursue advanced study and research, and of adequate preparation for the proposed field of study. Applicants to the Ph.D. program must present a specific thesis proposal, demonstrating their ability and commitment. The thesis proposal may be subsequently revised or refined. Calendar
    evidence of proficiency in the language of instruction (English), if English is not the first language of the applicant ( TOEFL or equivalent) Calendar
    demonstration of excellent performance in previous university-level study
    In practice, the history department is prepared to accept into the M.A. program students who have an overall, cumulative, weighted grade average of at least 70% during the last two years or equivalent of undergraduate study (Calendar), and a history average of 75% in the last two undergraduate honours years, and who present strong letters of recommendation. The department has occasionally made exceptions for students with very strong letters of recommendation and very strong undergraduate degrees.

    For admission into the Ph.D. program, the department requires a minimum of an 80% average in M.A. courses, along with strong letters of recommendation and samples of previous written work (a copy of the M.A. thesis or major paper is required).

    2.4 Students are sometimes admitted as "conditionally qualified" or "probationary" where they have academic deficiencies to be made up. See the entry for the College of Graduate Studies and Research in the most recent University of Saskatchewan Calendar for additional information.

    Now, across the border at the University of North Dakota, the requirements for admission to an MA History program include:
    Requirements for Admission to Master's Programs

    A four-year bachelor's degree (equivalent of 125 semester credits) from a recognized college or university. For U.S. degrees, the institution must be accredited by one of the following six regional accrediting associations: MSA; NASC; NCA; NEASC-CIHE; SACS-CC; or WASC-Sr.
    A minimum of 20 semester credits of appropriate undergraduate work in the chosen field.
    A cumulative grade point average (GPA) of at least *2.75 for all undergraduate work or 3.00 for the junior and senior years of undergraduate work (based on A=4.00). For applicants having the equivalent of one or more years of baccalaureate work reported on a non-graded system, submission of (a) an evaluation of the work and (b) Graduate Record Examination scores on the General Test and the Subject Test, if offered in the discipline.
    A minimum TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) score of 550 for the paper-based or 213 for the computer-based test for all applicants whose native language is not English. International applicants who have received their bachelor's or master's degree in the United States or English-speaking Canada are not required to submit the TOEFL.
    Completion of all departmental admission requirements (please check with the department for specifics).
    ---
    Thus, it appears that there is no such "equivalency" between the BAHons thesis and the US MA thesis at all, as you seem to be claiming. Furthermore, my AU degree will get me into any post secondary programme that I desire, provided I have enough background work in my Bachelor's degree, and otherwise meet the requirements of the post graduate programme to which I am applying, again disproving another one of your "theories."

    Darren.
     
  15. Gary Rients

    Gary Rients New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Thesis

    I'm still interested to know if you can substantiate this in any way, or if you are just guessing. It just doesn't seem like sound reasoning to assume that because an undergraduate thesis may not be required at a school, a graduate thesis at that school would therefore be equivalent to an undergraduate thesis.
     
  16. Gary Rients

    Gary Rients New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Thesis

    I'm curious about your position in the academic community. I have heard nothing but good things about Athabasca, from both students and other academics. Nothing has led me to believe that it has the questionable reputation of say UoP, or even NSU (though I myself don't really understand why anyone would look down upon NSU). My wife is strongly considering completing a Master's from Athabasca, so I would very much like to know of any potential pitfalls that I'm not aware of. We have been reviewing the school's website, and we're impressed with the apparent quality of the programs and the faculty.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2002
  17. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Thesis

    What programme is your wife considering?

    Darren.
    --
    Darren L. Kereluk
    NEW: Now with a shorter degree name to save your bandwidth!
    Undergraduate Student--Bachelor of Health Administration
    Athabasca University
    Member, Student Academic Appeals Committee
    AIM: DntKnw MSNMessenger: dlkereluk ICQ: 2866982

    “Information is power.”—Yukl and Falbe in “Importance of Different Power Sources in Downward and Lateral Relations”

    "Confiteor Deo omnipotenti vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa."
    ---Pet Shop Boys "It's a Sin
     
  18. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Reputation

    Athabasca University is not ranked in the annual Maclean's Universities Rankings which is the only ranking system we have in Canada. ATHABASCA IS NOT ON THE LIST.

    Primarily Undergraduate Ranking

    The Primarily Undergraduate universities are those largely focused on undergraduate education, with relatively few graduate programs.

    Ranking University Last yr.
    1 Mount Allison 1
    2 St. Francis Xavier 3
    3 Trent 4
    4 Acadia 2
    5 Winnipeg 7
    6 Bishop's 6
    7 Wilfrid Laurier 5
    8 Lethbridge 8
    9 Saint Mary's 9
    10 St. Thomas 12
    11 Moncton 11
    12 Brock 15
    13 Lakehead 21
    14 UNBC 10
    15 UPEI 18
    16 Mount Saint Vincent 13
    17 Nipissing 14
    18 Laurentian 17
    19 Ryerson 19*
    20 Brandon 16
    21 Cape Breton (UCCB) 19*

    * Indicates a tie.


    Comprehensive Ranking

    The Comprehensive universities are those with a significant amount of research activity and a wide range of programs at the undergraduate and graduate levels, including professional degrees.

    Ranking University Last yr.
    1 Waterloo 3
    2 Simon Fraser 1
    3 Guelph 2
    4 Victoria 4
    5 Memorial 6
    6 York 5
    7 Regina 11
    8 Carleton 8
    9 Windsor 7
    10 New Brunswick 10
    11 Concordia 9

    * Indicates a tie.


    Medical Doctoral Ranking

    The Medical Doctoral universities are those with a broad range of PhD programs and research, as well as medical schools

    Ranking University Last yr.
    1 Toronto 1
    2 UBC 2
    3 Queen's 3
    4 McGill 4
    5 Alberta 6
    6 Western 5
    7 Montreal 10
    8 McMaster 7
    9 Dalhousie 8
    10 Ottawa 9
    11 Saskatchewan 15
    *12 Calgary 12
    *12 Laval 11
    14 Sherbrooke 13
    15 Manitoba 14

    * Indicates a tie.


    Since the Maclean's Rankings are the only benchmark of relative university performance acknowledged by industry and academia, any university that is not on the list is irrelevant. Athabasca University is a distance-education open university that grants degrees approved by the Province of Alberta.

    I heard that Athabasca University may be seeking RA in the United States. Well, considering it's the only Canadian university that is seeking this status it brings into questions its motives.
     
  19. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    Re: Reputation


    Yes, then if you are so damned concerned about the list, then why did you throw it up, even though you admitted that the list was highly subjective. We weren't asked to be visited or checked by Maclean's but I guess you were too busy demeaning my institution to take notice.

    Probably because "experts" in distance education like you that denegrate distance learning in general is one of the reasons that my admin had to take this baffling and rather expensive step. All 30000+ AU students will certainly be grateful to know that it is an "expert" like you that is helping to drive up our tuition fees because you don't believe in dl and need something more than the nice pictures in Maclean's to prove that dl does matter and can be taken seriously.

    Darren. :mad::mad:
     
  20. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    Re: Reputation

    Again, twerp, you've got your facts wrong. Haven't you ever heard of Canadian Business Magazine, another of Ted Rogers's holdings?
    You are becoming irrelevant because you can't get your facts straight. In Canadian Business online
    at:http://www.canadianbusiness.com/xta-asp/storyview.asp?viewtype=search&tpl=search_frame&edate=2001/11/12&vpath=/2001/11/12/feature/40669.html&maxrec=1&recnum=1&searchtype=BASIC&pg=1&rankbase=&searchstring=Athabasca&pc=cb
    The following chart appears:
    EMBA ranking
    UNIVERSITY SURVEY
    Rank University No. of
    courses
    Av. years of work experience
    % students
    who hold
    a degree % female staff % female students Staff
    rating
    public?
    1 Queen’s 26 14.3 82 20 21 Yes
    2 Richard Ivey (Western) 19 14 92 13 20 Yes
    3 Athabasca 25 9 65 25 29 No
    4 Sobey (St. Mary’s) 16 17 91 15 31 No
    5 John Molson (Concordia) 21 14 85 25 19 No
    6 Joseph L. Rotman (Toronto) 23 16 56 21 30 No
    7 Calgary/Alberta 20 14 87 27 18 Yes
    8 Ottawa 34 15 80 19 33 Yes
    9 Simon Fraser 13 12 75 25 25 No
    10 Quebec 15 8 75 50 45 Yes
    - Royal Roads* 37 14 65 40 43 No
    Weight 5% 10% 5% 5% 5% 5%

    AU ranks ahead of, notibly, the U of T and the U of O, so this makes what you have been saying IRRELEVANT, because these kind of rankings are based on the opinions of business leaders, academics and students.

    Learn to read English soon sometime so that you can actually prove that you know what you are talking about.

    Darren.


    :mad:
     

Share This Page