University of Liverpool

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by bob_davis, Mar 3, 2015.

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  1. bob_davis

    bob_davis New Member

    If anyone has had any personal experience with the University of Liverpool, could you comment on their online programs, most specifically, the DBA?

    I have read through many of the search results on this forum regarding Distant Learning DBA’s. The University of Liverpool has already been mentioned at a solid program. But other than stating that the program is accredited and solid, I have not been able to find the information that would make me feel comfortable with the program.

    I am looking for two things: 1. A solid program that will allow me to teach business, preferably accounting, at an accredited state school. Also, could I become a tenure track professor with this DBA? 2. A respected program that will give me mobility within the academic field. I do not want a situation where I could potentially be hired at a ‘below average’ school but lack the mobility to change schools if I desired.

    I understand that Liverpool’s DBA is running approximately $80,000 USD at the moment. It appears to be a rigorous program which I want. But, is this correct? I do not want to invest a large amount of time and money then realize it was wasted of both. How are oversee degrees viewed within the United States?

    My reasoning for not pursuing a Ph. D in accounting, or even DBA locally, is that I have several investments at the moment that require me to stay put. By the time that I complete the DBA, I predict that I will have more mobility on location when job hunting.

    My credentials, if it matters, include CPA with 10+ years of public experience and MBA from an accredited average state school.

    Bob
     
  2. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    A DBA is a doctorate. So yes, you can teach with it. Will anyone hire you? There are a number of factors that cannot be accounted (no pun intended) for in the course of a forum discussion.

    I just jumped onto the website of Binghamton University. It's a pretty well respected state school in New York State. It's considered a public ivy. I looked past the adjuncts and the assistant professors and found an associate professor who has an MBA and no doctorate. I didn't see any DBAs.

    But take that brief survey with a grain of salt. My purpose isn't to show you that a career in academia is likely with a University of Liverpool DBA. But since a few MBAs were able to get tenure track positions at a public ivy, that seems to bode well.

    At the very least, it shows that your goal isn't impossible.

    If that did happen to you, it would be hard to pin it on your doctorate, I believe. There are a dozen reasons why you would be forced to move on from a school. Maybe you didn't publish enough to get tenure. Maybe your student evaluations are terrible.

    Part of the issue in your question is that I don't know what you define as a "below average" school. Is a private liberal arts college nestled deep in the mountains "below average?" Are you basing these classifications on rankings, subjective opinions of the locals, how many alumni they have on a Forbes list?

    I'm not trying to be snarky. If I look at the faculty list for Methodist University which is ranked by US News and World Reports (tied for #62 in Regional Colleges - South). The faculty list has at least two graduates of the University of Phoenix and a DBA from Nova Southeastern (also a CPA). (the Nova Southeastern grad is the Director of the MBA program)

    But I don't really know how this school fits your view of "average" versus "below average." None of us can tell you whether any of these professors have much mobility in academia. But, the fact that Nova Southeastern and Touro University alumni (DBA and Ph.D., respectively) are represented on the faculty in either tenured (or tenure track) positions should tell you something.

    For starters, it should tell you that these professors might well have a laundry list of publications and that their doctorate is only a piece of the equation. I would never use this reference as "proof" that Touro PhDs can get jobs in academia. But it shows, at the very minimum, that it is possible.

    If you have a business degree from Liberia, probably not very favorably (I'm sure there are exceptions). But that just goes to show that you can't just lump "overseas" degrees together like they all belong to the same class.

    If Britain just lumped all "American degrees" together, then the University of Phoenix is neck-and-neck with Harvard to a British employer. There are good foreign universities. There are bad foreign universities. There are foreign universities with comparable standards to U.S. schools. There are foreign universities that have standards that far exceed most U.S. schools.

    Go to a university website (or 20) and see how many foreign graduates they have. Did it help? No. Because there being a professor with a degree from Oxford doesn't tell you anything about the University of Liverpool.

    Also, despite being a "foreign" degree, the University of Liverpool's DBA program is AASCB accredited. So it has a U.S. based programmatic accreditor. That is going to weigh in your favor.

    I did a quick search trying to find professors who have a DBA from Liverpool. I didn't find any (but it wasn't a comprehensive search). My point is that if you have an AACSB accredited doctorate, you are on the right path if you want to teach.

    But, there are many other factors at play. You could have a Ph.D. from Harvard. If you don't publish, you're probably going to be shown the door.

    So, take all of these little observations as you will. Hopefully my ranting helped you somewhat put UoL in perspective.
     
  3. bob_davis

    bob_davis New Member

    Neuhaus – Thank you!

    I didn’t find your comments snarky at all but extremely helpful. Thank you again for your time!
     
  4. nyvrem

    nyvrem Active Member

    If you are worried about Liverpool's reputation, then you might want to know they are one of the founding members of the Russell group.

    Russell Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Other Unis inside this association are institutes like Cambridge, Warwick, Oxford and UoL
     
  5. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    MY TAKE ON YOU ENTERING TT ACADEMIA VIA YOUR PROPOSED PATH

    POSITIVES

    My dept (I teach in an accounting dept) just hired a prof for a TT position who has a DBA. This is neither unusual nor exceptional.

    Accounting is an extremely high-demand field at the moment (and appears to be only getting worse over time), thus the opportunities are possibly better there than any other in academia (and the pay ranges on average $140 to $150K to start). There are more jobs coming available than qualified candidates, the market favors you.

    Liverpool ranks in the British top-30 for accounting (100+/- schools) and top 40 for general business (120+/- schools), so it's a solid program.

    The gold standard for U.S. universities is AACSB, Liverpool is accredited thereby.

    Your background as a CPA and MBA.

    It's not unusual for TT academics in the U.S. to have degrees from UK universities.



    NEGATIVES:

    The Liverpool program is a management degree and appears to focus exclusively on that, not an accounting degree per se, though I assume it would be possible for you to focus a dissertation on the "management" of accounting (perhaps from a corporate governance perspective, which is a very common research track in accounting) to mitigate this issue somewhat (though this assumes an agreeable dissertation mentor).

    Even though U.S. universities do hire UK doctorate holders, it is not normative, thus you're not the typical candidate, making it a bit tougher unless some strong voice on a search committee who is not too beholden to the conservatism that oft governs academic decision-making.

    Have you considered the cost, both opportunity costs and out-of-pocket? That is one pricey program. Do you think it feasible to pour out that amount of money? Do you plan on working FT to fund it? Do you think that's feasible? Do you have a family? Do you think pursuing this degree an interesting sidelight rather than something that will become an all-consuming obsession that even throwing 40 to 50 hours a week at it, may never lead to the degree you covet? Do you wish to have your spouse smother you with a pillow if you attempt to work FT while pursuing a terminal degree?

    Are you an experienced researcher? Are you inclined towards advanced statistics such that you feel confident you can master research utilizing statistical methodologies that would trip up the vast majority of the population such that they could never quite get a grasp, no matter how much effort they made? Being a CPA is an accomplishment, but it is not a fait accompli that one who can pass that exam can also master doctoral-level research, or even if they can, it is no guarantee that such a person wouldn't get so burned out by the process that they would abandon it altogether (I have two family members (one a CPA) who embarked on PhDs and eventually dropped them in exhaustion).

    BOTTOM LINE:

    I suppose it could be done, considering the market, which favors academic job-seekers in accounting tremendously, so long as you take steps to become a part of the academic community by presenting the fruits of your ongoing research at regional conferences in the area in which you'll be seeking employment. Again, accounting is a field in which I encourage aspiring academics because there is a growing desperation for qualified candidates. I teach at a reasonably large research university. It's getting tough for us to find more than a handful of qualified candidates in accountancy with each search, it's tough to hold them even when we land one, as they'll work here a few years, then take an offer in the $160s or higher from another school. It's a great field, but consider the cost of your proposed path.

    AN ALTERNATIVE SUGGESTION:

    Have you considered taking the GMAT and applying for bona fide full time accounting PhD or DBA programs in the U.S.? Your profile is not that unusual for one seeking a PhD in accounting. If your undergraduate and MBA grades are reasonably good (though even if not, this would be mitigated by your professional experience) and you can at least get in the 600s on the GMAT (there are great review courses for this), with a reasonably good quant score, you'd be competitive for one of the roughly 100 accounting PhD or DBA programs in the U.S. (assuming you aren't too old, as in not above your 30s or 40s, preferably 30s). Often, candidates have their tuition waived and receive a stipend for a teaching assistantship or research fellowship. This can run $20,000 to $30,000 per year), so it's not like you'd be going massively in debt. Considering your position, assuming you've made the rational decisions that someone who understands cost accounting would make, I assume you have some money socked away and might be able to financially make this happen. Universities typically hire PhD candidates and make offers in their fourth year, sometimes early in the fourth year, so it's not like this would take an exceedingly long time. Just an idea, and it would make you more marketable.
     
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The DBA+MBA+CPA is normally fine provided that you have some graduate credits in Accounting or a MACC. The only issue with the DBA at UoL is that is a general one and does not provide a specialization, this could be seen as a disadvantage.

    I teach Accounting online for few schools as an adjunct, the main requirement is a DBA or PhD in Accounting or a MAcc+ CPA to teach as an adjunct. If the UoL appeals you, you should be able to negotiate with them some credits at the DBA level in Accounting taken from their MSc in Accounting just so you meet the accreditation requirements. The other option is to do a MRes in Accounting via DL at a UK school on top of the DBA, you might be able to do this if the dissertation topic overlaps with the MRes. A Mres is a Master of research degree but can be specialized in a particular topic such accounting.

    Finding a tenure track with a DBA+MBA+CPA should be fine if you are willing to move. Bear in mind that that there is a huge salary gap among schools. Some schools pay as little as 50K for a professor in accounting while others pay 150K.

    If you don't mind a lower salary, you should be able to find few offers with you DBA.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  7. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Most of these are pre-AACSB. With AACSB, you must hire AQ qualified faculty and this means a doctorate from AACSB school.

    The DBA from UoL qualifies you for a tenure track but there is always competition,however, in this case of accounting the DBA puts you on top of the pile as most professors in Accounting do not go for a doctorate. The fact that the OP has a CPA gives him an advantage as most PhDs from traditional accounting programs do not hold CPAs as most come from the academic stream and not professional stream.

    Half of the academic jobs in business are in accounting, the OP would be very unlucky if he cannot find an academic job given the vast number of jobs available in the area.
     
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    You're oversimplifying the requirements listed here.

    Please note that the emphasis is mine.

    The requirements for a professionally qualified faculty member are:

    Again, emphasis is mine.
     
  9. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    AACSB schools hire faculty with non-AACSB biz doctorates, though many include AACSB accreditation in their job qualifications. But it would likely be waived for a solid Brit, Aus, NZ or SA uni. Of course AACSB is primarily a U.S. phenomenon and most schools in the world don't care squat about it, about 1/6 of Brit schools have the accreditation. That said, I thought Liverpool was AACSB, so I'd think this distinction is irrelevant regarding the OP.

    In any event, in a world where neither Oxford nor Cambridge has AACSB accreditation, while Clark-Atlanta does, it makes the point quite moot. It's hard to imagine that the average U.S. university wouldn't leap to make an offer to one with a PhD from Oxbridge, and would probably find a way to throw some extra cash at them and start them at $200K plus.
     
  10. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    With regard to the AQ/PQ distinction, realize that AACSB universities don't have carte blanche to load up on as many PQ-only faculty as they'd like, and these faculty typically make dramatically less in accounting than AQ. The difference is along the lines of maybe $70K/yr versus $140K/yr, and PQ typically have no shot at tenure. If a uni biz school gets its AQ/PQ ratio out of whack, this can threaten their acccreditation.
     
  11. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    PQ faculty are hired at the instructor or lecturer level, as the example that you quoted is at the professor level, this means that the faculty member was hired before AACSB accreditation was achieved by the school.

    AACSB requires AQ faculty to hold a doctorate, PQ does not need one but cannot be given professor level positions.
     
  12. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    So, I take it that Liverpool has an AACSB doctoral program in business that has accounting as one of the majors. Is that so?
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I've noticed that those who teach at top American schools and graduated from top non-American schools often graduated from schools that are accredited by EQUIS or AMBA.
     
  14. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    No, I think it's general management, which would be a problem. There are tenured accounting faculty who hold doctorates in other disciplines, I know one who's PhD is in economics, but he's also a CPA and former public firm partner. It's generally a requirement that the PhD be in accounting, though some job descriptions also say "or related discipline". It's also generally a requirement that PhDs be AACSAB accredited for U.S. faculty positions, though it's almost impossible to imagine this being a deal-breaker if one held a PhD from a good Euro school or one down under. It's not at all uncommon for U.S. universities to hire such a person, one of my former colleagues fit the bill.
     
  15. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Except that isn't what AACSB says. If you have another source, please share it.

    AACSB says:

    Which seems to disagree with your assertion. Now, what you are suggesting may be the way schools normally implement the policy but it doesn't appear to be AACSB's requirement.
     
  16. bob_davis

    bob_davis New Member

    All – I have decided to pursue the Liverpool route.

    FTFaculty – Thank you for your comments and great questions for me think about! I will research how I can possibly focus more on accounting in my dissertation and attempt to fill out the faculty early on.

    I did attempt the Ph. D route for several years. My GMAT score was a 640 and my MBA is with concentration in Accounting (GPA slightly over 3.8). I attempted to get into two Ph. D programs on multiple occasions but was unable to get into either program. The reason for not applying elsewhere was due to currently owning ‘hard’ investments that I do not plan to liquidate for several more years. As a result, I desire to live with a 6-8 hour radius of my current location. For age, I am in my low 30's.

    As far as money, saving is in my DNA. I do have plenty of reserves saved up so finances should not draw my focus away from school. Since the program is supposed to be designed for people who are employed, I am going to attempt to work as long as possible.

    RFValve - I really like the idea of MRes in Accounting or negotiating DBA level accounting classes.

    Honesty, I am passionate about this route but also want to be paid well once I am finished. My goal would be to start between $140k-$150k range. Even though I spend much less than half of what I make now (I am a saver), I currently make ~$200k. I would prefer not to spend $80k+ in tuition for a $50k job. I will continue to research ways to be competitive for those higher range positions.

    Thanks again for the comments.
     
  17. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    well, let's try this again. My first attempt at a reply was vaporized for no known reason. Now, I don't know much about the University of Liverpool's graduate programs in business administration, but i saw and responded to a UOL thread and this is what i know. First, I know that they are accredited by the AACSB and they offer the DBA AND, YES, ONE OF THEIR MAJORS IS IN ACCOUNTING. Now, hopefully zyou cand tolerate the occasional; USE OF ALL CAPS and such like, because I am not anywhere near as stupid as i look, rather, I only have about 12,ooo posts on this board over the last ten yeasrs and most of thodsse posts are about trying to help newbies find their programs of choivce and i have also madev it into more than a few darn fool forays into debates in Political & Off Topics, where i have been known to make some darn fool TMI statements to the effect that I am impotent and still a virgin. But enough of that darn foolery ... nowm, what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, we were talkning about the UOL's AACSB DBA in Accounting. The fact that they are AACSB tells me that you are likely to be able to land a full-time tenure-track professorship in business at a school thaty is big enough to offer doctoral programsd. Furthermore, the UOL DBA offers a major in Accounting. I just might go to UOL myself. My previous plan was to go to Nova Southeastern University in Florida toi take their DBA in Accounting. I assessed the situation and decided that NSU was likely to get their AACSB and so i was willing to risk enrolling there ion hopes of getting an AACSB DBA IN Accounting. But, it seems that some accrediting agencies like to require a school to essentially castrate itself as a pre-condition of getting accreditation. So, now NSU NO longer offers any doctoral programs. The distinction between the DBA and the PhD at traditional bricks & mortar schools is that the DBA student writes a practical applied dissertation while the PHD writes a highly theoretical dissertation.ut, some schoolls, like Nova, which used to offer the DBA and they required/encouraged you to start writing obscure journal articles even before leaving school. Generally, the DBA is expected to go into private business and maybe even doing a little adjuncting, while the PHD is expected to become a full time tenure track professor & maybe become a corporate PHD on the side. The fact that it is AACSB accredited tells me that you can expect to make at least $100,ooo straight out of the starting gate, even if you're teaching the blow off courses like Human Resources or Marketing. Should you have chosen a little red-headed step-child major, like E-Commerce or Entrepreneurship, you would be expected to start your own business (or your own online business ) and mayber do a little adjunctiong ion the side,. At any rate, Accounting, Finance, and Statistics are the ruling class majors. They are otherwise known as "the Quant Jocks." Thev factb is that $80,ooo in tuition is par for the course for tuition . You cannot use federal student loans to finance studies at foreign schools but you can use private school loans like Citicorp, Discover, Key Bank or others if you don't m,ind being $100,ooo in school loan debt for the next ten years after graduation. And that's about all i know. aMEN/ ps - if you need other ideas for private school loans please contact your most recent edition of peterson's guide.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2015
  18. Gabrile

    Gabrile New Member

    I had my MBA from university of Liverpool and currently i am doing my DBA at the university of liverpool. In short: they were amazing, now they are terrible.

    Literally they trying to rip me off and other fellow students. What happened is that they said the fees is 72500, and that the first installment is 4750, ( pay as you go) When i did the calculation i found out the fees is to be 77500, when i e-mailed them about it 3 times they didn't answer me back and finaly they said "the fees increased" I was like, this is my FIRST installment and you increased the fees before i even paid that?

    other university students told me that they increase the fees EVERYYEAR. So basically you enroll for 72,500 and then you end up paying something around 90,000.

    Plus, "they let you pass if you submit your assignments" Not all instructors do that to be fair, but many DO.

    I am leaving them and going for another university, still searching.
     

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