What does it mean to be CA State Approved

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by mcjon77, Aug 21, 2003.

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  1. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Hi All,

    I keep reading all of the talk about California state approved schools and wanted to know what the difference as far as utility of the degree was between them and non approved schools in California. I am limiting this to schools and people in California as I would assume that such state liscensing would carry little, if any, weight outside of Cali.

    If a school in Cali is not state approved can they still offer degrees without fines/jail?

    Does a CA approved degree count as a legitimate degree for people applying for jobs with the state government (the way DETC degrees qualify for jobs in the Federal government)?

    Do either of the state university systems in Cali recognize non-RA state approved university's classes for transfer credit or their bachelors degrees as sufficent for entering into one of the state schools graduate programs?

    I'm asking this question so that I may understand what are the additional benefits to going to a state approved school as opposed to a non-approved/non-accredited school.

    Thanks for all of the info.

    Jon
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member



    Admissions officials don't make much distinction, and neither do employers (until they're told about the differences between California approval and some other states' licensure, like Wyoming.)
     
  3. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Legally no, but there is very little bite in the law, as in Oregon. But, this is the reason that some schools that have administravtive offices in California but have their mail drop in another state can not enroll students from California.

    One of the main exemptions is regional accreditation, except if the school is acrredited in another region, but has a degree granting facility in California (U of Phx for example) they are state approved.
     
  4. Randy Miller

    Randy Miller New Member

    There was a post within the last month or so where Taft University had interesting comments on California approval. You might want to do a quick search.

    Dr. Bear's books also have comprehensive discussions on the topic.
     
  5. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    There are no non-approved private non-WASC degree granting schools in California. Or more accurately, by law there shouldn't be.

    Many states have their own licensing/approval mechanisms. California gets the most attention on Degreeinfo because it has so many approved schools and because a number of those schools offer DL programs. But what California does isn't really unique.

    As to what weight is carried, I think that's probably more a function of the individual schools than it is a function of the approval process. That's something that Degreeinfo has trouble accepting.

    The main exceptions, the instances where the CA-approved status carries some weight in its own right, is in qualifying applicants to take a few California state licensing examinations. (Particularly those in law and clinical psychology.)

    State universities can. But being a state university is a form of state approval, isn't it? (Just one that doesn't involve the BPPVE.) Private schools accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges get a blanket exemption.

    Other than that, the California Education Code demands that any private degree-granting institution in California must be approved. That includes not only the non-accredited schools, but also all the schools accredited by recognized accreditors other than WASC. (The University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Finance and Carnegie Mellon University are CA-approved.)

    There's also a religious exemption for schools that only offer instruction in particular religious doctrines. (I believe that they still have to be approved, but that their approval is truncated and doesn't involve most of the normal process.) That's why in California as in most states, the most millish of legal non-accredited schools are the weird little seminaries.

    As to penalties for violating the Education Code sections, I'm not sure. There may be criminal penalties, or there may just be a provision for the state to shut down the offending schools. But since accomplishing that takes considerable litigation if the offending school wants to fight (as Columbia Pacific did), this remedy is almost never exercised. So the regulations are actually pretty toothless.

    Not that I know of. I don't think that there is any blanket policy declaring these degrees acceptable. (I might be wrong.) Certainly some state licensing boards don't recognize them.

    I have heard of graduates of CA-approved schools who have held positions in county governments. Members of the bar who attended a CA-approved law school are treated like any other member of the bar for purposes of government employment, I think. A number of them are judges. Former California Governor Edmund G. "Pat" Brown (Jerry Brown's father) graduated from a CA-approved law school, as did former California Lt. Governor Leo McCarthy and a recent president of the California Bar Association.

    And there's one very unique CA-approved school (like no other in the world) that teaches courses for the FAA and NASA, as well as enrolling US and foreign military personnel. Recently the US State Department threatened to close it down (they aren't toothless) because they thought the the school was too good. (They feared that it was leaking American military technology to foreigners.) I believe that a compromise was reached that has American intelligence agencies reviewing student applications before admission.

    The point seems to be that some of these schools work very well in some situations for some students, but it's very much a case-by-case deal. Again, success is a function of the school itself, the program chosen, the student and how the education that's received is subsequently employed. Success isn't simply a function of the approval status. We mustn't lose sight of the fact that despite the existence of a few stars, most of the CA-approved schools seem pretty lame when they are compared to RA schools.

    I think that the answer to that is a pretty flat 'no'.

    The California State University doesn't recognize them. But they do allow people with non-accredited (not just CA-approved) bachelors degrees to apply for admission as an undergraduate. Then the student can petition his/her graduate department and if the department is in a good mood and thinks that the student's education was credible, they will assign one or two semesters of upper division major coursework of their choosing. Assuming that these are all passed with B's or better, the student can petition the department head and some deans for admission to conditional graduate status.

    If you are talking about California, there are no non-approved schools in the state, at least not legally. The CA-approved schools simply are the non-accredited schools.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: What does it mean to be CA State Approved

    And this of course is a very subjective statement.
     
  7. Ohnalee

    Ohnalee New Member

    Bill and Rich, your replies were right on. The utility of the private postsecondary degree outside of CA depends as much on the school and the field of study, as on state or company policy.

    CA-approved degrees can be acceptable in CA state service, depending on the agency. BPPVE and its parent agency DCA do accept them for career advancement (for obvious reasons).

    Bill: "If you are talking about California, there are no non-approved schools in the state, at least not legally."

    Me: Sadly, there are actually MANY non-approved schools in the state, operating illegally. Some of them enroll US students, others concentrate on recruiting overseas students.

    Before enrolling in a California private postsecondary school, check its status with the BPPVE. You can call the BPPVE at (916) 445-3427, or visit the online directory: https://app1.dca.ca.gov/bppve/school-search/
     
  8. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    On one hand, there's the California Education Code with its specific language about what approval means and what qualifies a school to be approved. This keeps approved schools in the legitimate category and provides some comfort to a student who is seeking an inexpensive (in many cases) degree from a state certified degree-granting school. So far so good. ....however, there are some serious limitations to degrees with CA state approval and many of these have been listed.

    In my experience, these degrees are most useful when held in addition to accredited degrees and are most acceptable in business and industry (focused in CA). Outside of CA you can run into States like Oregon or South Dakota that don't take kindly to strangers (state approved degrees). There are many academics, politicians, and administrators with CA state approved degrees but once again they typically have other "stuff in the bag".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2003
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    But again, a law license is a law license. If I were a working middle aged person living in California and not intending to leave for ten years or so and I wanted to become a lawyer, I might very well opt for a CA correspondence Bar JD program. Between very low tuition and the ability to work full time, such a degree is almost too cheap to refuse!
     
  10. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Yes, I agree concerning professional licensing within CA. This is a fascinating low cost and flexible option for many entering psychology, social science, and law. Also, the State Approved degree leading to a professional license can lead to utility in other States once you've practiced in CA for a certain amount of time. And the ROI of such a degree, properly applied, is exceptional. Even though they aren't accredited in the formal definition (this is many ways is the result of a political condition, not necessarily for lack of quality) a CA State Approved degree should be considered in a higher category of recognition and utility than "unaccredited" degrees.
     
  11. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Unaccredited does cover a fair amount of ground. From roaring degree mill to BJU. This is the case for all schools. All schools accredited or not fit into a spectrum of differing utility/respect. For example, I seriously doubt that the utility of CA Approved would compare that favorably with the utility of a BJU degree.
     
  12. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    All things being relative, BJU has its own set of problems as indicated in litigation such as:

    Bob Jones University v. United States
    No. 81-3
    SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
    461 U.S. 574
    October 12, 1982
    May 24, 1983 [*]

    Racial discriminatory policies, tax issues, etc.

    And I'm not sure about this but I doubt whether a BJU degree would qualify one to sit for the CA bar or psychology licensing. No matter, I do agree that "unaccredited" is a big range, too big in fact. I think most John Q's believe unaccredited is a bad thing (bottom end of the scale) so the range tends to be misunderstood. That's why I favor more understanding of State Approved (state certified) degrees.
     
  13. kf5k

    kf5k member

    A person needs to know what they want the degree for. If a California approved degree is intended for use within the state of California it will carry much weight. Outside California it may work in many cases and not well in others. California is a state with the physical size and population of many countries. A degree from one of its approved schools may be ideal for specific usage within this territory. Once again it's up to the person to research and learn if the degree will do what they want it to. State approval carries weight beyond the word unaccredited, but less than accredited.
     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

     
  15. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    I would modify James' statement to say "would carry some weight" rather than "much". Given that, I believe the body of James' statement is true and reflects the fact that the holder of a CA State Approved degree is permitted entry into certain licensed professions within that State that also can be leveraged with tenure into other States. This represents higher utility than the "run-of-the-mill" (pun not intended) unaccredited degree based on strictly a business license without State certification.

    Rich, why do you state in your last point "that is supportable but lamentable"? This means to express grief for or about, deplorable... State approved degrees are a valid means of education for thousands in that system. While I am pleased that your research confirms a phenomenon that has been understood by many and discussed for some time, I believe the investigator should be more objective. Unless of course I missed your point.
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I fit your description and I have to admit that I've seriously considered enrolling in a CA-approved J.D. program.

    I used to work in a paralegal capacity in a law enforcement agency, and developed quite an interest in the law at that time. Academically my interests run towards philosophy, and as you probably know, law schools are homes away from home for philosophers.

    If I studied law, it would pretty much be for my own interest. I'm the kind of guy who is always reading and always thinking, so I might as well put my avocational interests to use. If I succeeded in graduating I'd probably take the bar exam, more as a vindication of the education than as a career move. But if I was admitted to the bar I would probably do some limited pro-bono-publico type things that I felt were within my capacities.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    If you decide to do it, I suggest picking a program that costs no more than, say, $2500 per year in tuition and routinely graduates people who actually pass the Bar.

    My favorite is NW Cal U but there are others.
     
  18. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Thanks for the advice. I also looked through the various CA-correspondence law sites. My reaction, based on not much, was that NWCal looked best. Glad to see that confirmed by someone who knows what to look for! Once everything else is done, I would also like to do this out of personal interest, not with a view to switching careers.
     
  19. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I believe that the only significant difference that one would likely find (once a real study were done) between the utility of a CA approved degree within and outside the state is for those few professional licenses that accept CA approved degrees by law, e.g., sitting for the bar and counciling. What exactly is your assertion based on? If you have ANY, even ancedotal, evidence I'd be very interested in hearing it.
     
  20. kf5k

    kf5k member

    Alright I'll modify my term to "muchminus", hows that? :) The California system of approval is an evaluation process. It is a combination of the statutory laws and administrative rules which make it a legal way of granting degrees. The degrees that approved schools offer are a legal choice, and in California grant special privileges that Calif. exempt schools don't enjoy. It is for the individual to choose or reject, and for whatever reason they select. You may not like it, but it isn't your choice to make.
     

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