KW again

The differentiating differences between an illegal degree mill and unaccredited school, in my opinion are:

1. Because in the US accreditation is entirely voluntary and since the States are the legal operating authority for granting degrees, at a minimum, is the degree offering institution legally authorized and complaint within the State it claims conferment residence to issue post secondary degrees. Does the state authority recognize it's licensure of the school; is the school legally state registered and in full compliance, as a minimum standard. If it has religious exemption from Sate regulations, it should only issue religious degrees.

2. Is the degree earned. There must be courses and a program which must be sequentially followed and completed works evaluated (mechanized/proctored).

3. The adjunct-faculty should have with recognized graduate degrees, from respected and recognized schools.

4. Are there published grade standards, or are A's given to all. If an A is earned with a course, it must be documentable thru proof of graded test, project completion and graded, or evaluated and graded report.

5. Is the school solvent, or a fly by night operation, are there complaints, check with the BBB. Does the school play a civic role within the state it claims its degree issuance authority.

6. Does the school maintain records and develop valid transcripts, or do they use a transcription service (bogus).

7. Although not an official requirement, and some mills are grandfathered, the majority of the schools which use the .EDU web address, are legitimate. Be wary of xxxedu.com or xxx.com, xxx.net, xxx-org.com.

8. Doe the school currently clearly state that it is unaccredited and state registered or CA state approved, or does the school use a bogus accreditor - the worst violation.

A mill will issue a piece of paper, and backdate a transcript, with no course work altogether. A mill is illegally operating, or operating illegally within the guidelines of the state in which it gains it's conferment abilities. Mills will leave the US altogether and claim African or Caribbean authorization, averting even the most minimum US State Licensure laws. You can send your dogs paw print, and write CV - on top, and he'll have a PH.D.

Thanks,

 

RJT,

You forgot to mention the simple rules.

1. Is the university accredited according to GAAP? (Kennedy-Western University fails this test.)
2. Does the college require a standard level of academic achievement before bestowing a degree? (Kennedy-Western University fails this test.)
3. If the institution offers life-experience credit without associating credits to specific classes required for a degree and without ensuring that the student has the acquired knowledge to pass each specific required class then the school is most assuredly bogus. -- the worst violation (Note: that RJT made a bogus claim that false accreditation claims is the worst violation. Everything in my list is far more important than that infraction.) (K-W passes this test for a degree mill with flying colors!)
4. If the institution does not have a fixed list of required classes and electives for it's degree programs then it is most likely a degree mill. (K-W also passes this test for a degree mill with flying colors!)

 

KW fails even according to your standards:

KW used to claim accreditation by the National Association for Private Post-Secondary Education Washington, DC. Mentioned, in 1990, in the literature of Kennedy-Western University. They say they are not an accrediting agency but a private association of schools, however Kennedy-Western claimed accreditation from them.


http://www.degree.net/guides/non-gaap_listings.html


So are you saying that KW was a mill but now is not? Can a school that was a mill in the past be considered "state-approved" in the present? how about the people that were granted the degrees in 1990? are they supposed to hold mills while you hold a "state-approved" degree?

 

Hey, RJT...

ever got the feeling that you're going to have to defend your degrees for the rest of your life??

Cheers,

George

 

The "seething attack" against K-W is not warranted. The key to a Non-Mill is that you earn the degree.

While K-W does offer experiential credit for life experience (this I agree should be published) however, ALL STUDENTS have to complete a choice of 5+ classes, after assessment and complete an extensive thesis/final project (which is subject to an anti-plagiarism service - no cheaters allowed). Also, all students should have an AA/AS minimally, or complete a pre-qualifying exam (testing to assure that the student has the educational comparable knowledge); if the student fails the exam, he/she has to complete a pre-entry series of courses. Finally, K-W seeks the transfer in of all previous accredited credits, in my case I had over 100, therefore I only had to complete 5 courses and the 100 page plus report.

I realize this angers members on this board, but K-W does require genuine successful course completion (grading done on-line via computer program, or proctored exams); and let me state that the courses were comparable to any of the RA courses I had to take.

My K-W courses had the oversight of RA professors, who designed the curriculum, and my coursework included classes in: Operations Management, Decision Making, Organizational Behavior and Management & Supervision. What K-W does not require are arbitrary Humanities courses. K-W is vocationally oriented - and the learning’s are directly applicable, to the job. You do not need to know about history, but they’ll have you complete courses in C++. For this reason (no humanities), plus that they offer Doctorates (without residency), they can not be accredited.

However, unlike the previously aforementioned schools, K-W does not just issue the degree - it has to be earned. The program can’t be completed before nine months, even if you complete the program early, they will not graduate you - NO RUSHED 4 Week Degrees.

Please remember: in the US the States are the legal authoriity for granting degrees, this can not be disputed, and as such K-W is regulated by the WY Department of Education. The WY Department of Education HAS VISITED their offices and reviewed their programs - and- has found their programs worthy to issue them an Operating License (review the WY DoE's website and meetings notices, if curious) thru 2006. Who knows though, perhaps in 2007 they'll go for DETC. ...

K-W must be built with armor to endure the bashings, which, certain members of this board continually put-forth.

Ciao,

 

> The "seething attack" against K-W is not warranted. The key
> to a Non-Mill is that you earn the degree.

Does RFValve's question about 1990 graduates deserve an answer? Or are you so defensive of Kennedy-Western that what you just called "the worst violation" no longer matters? Has "the key to a Non-Mill" just changed in your mind?

 

The degree mill known as Kennedy-Western probably no longer claims bogus accreditation not because they are honest as is implicitly asserted by RJT. As others have pointed out they used to partake in this dishonest practice. Rather they are trying to avoid prosecution for being a degree mill. IIRC, there's a warning in the Wyoming code that an institution cannot use deception in their marketing ploys.

RJT, I really don't think that people here are angry about K-W. For myself I find it extremely amusing that you split relatively unimportant hairs in your repeated attempts to differentiate K-W from other degree mills. Look if it makes you feel any better I'll admit that in some ways K-W is better than some other degree mills. One why that I don't believe that they are better though is in the honesty by the owner. One why that they are actually worse is that because they do force the graduates to take a minimal number of classes, it causes many of the alumni to embrace their state of denial even more firmly.

Regards,
Bill

 

So it seems that your standards have changed again. So now you claim that because a school asks you to do minimal work it is not a mill. It seems that the 5 courses that you took is the only argument in favour of KW. 5 courses at most of the universities is about 15 credits and a bachelor normally requires from 90 to 120 credits. So you are telling me that if a school asks you to complete 1/8 th of what is normally required it is not longer a degree mill.

Anyways, I'm happy to learn that you feel that you achieved top class education, but it is not fair that you encourage students towards a what most of the people from academia, newspaper, education journals, forum members consider a worthless piece of paper.

 

RJT wrote:

> For this reason [...] plus that they offer Doctorates
> (without residency), they can not be accredited.

Isn't that what people used to think, until Northcentral University got its regional accreditation?

 

RF:

I am not claiming that 5 courses are sufficient. K-W publishes that the student is entering the program with an AA/AS Degree, or he/she successfully tests to demonstrate the Associate's equivalency. So in theory, the student starts with a transfer of 60 credits, they take 5 classes that puts them at 75 credits. The Final Project Proposal was worth 3 credits (75 pages), the Final Project in completion is worth 9 credits. Total of 87 credits.

However, the school provides experiential credit. Many students transfer in with greater than 60 credits, according to the PUB, and if a deficiency exists, it is not uncommon for the student to exceed the 5 classes; I've seen posts of up to 9 classes on the PUB.

For my experiential award, I had to complete an evaluative form listing all my job and education histories, as well as, references. I also had to have all transcripts forwarded. In addition, the Advisor asked me a series of questions. I was told that the documents are presented to a faculty committee for awardation recommendation.

Again in my case I transferred over 100 RA credits; some may transfer more, some less.

In my case some of many of my credits had exceeded the lifecycle of their transferability; K-W accepted them and offered me an experiential award. In addition, the 5 classes, and the Final Project, via DL, were conducive to my life circumstance at the time (rather than the 9 classes, required if I had stayed in the RA program).

Do I regret K-W? No. I feel they gave me an option, and I truly did learn from the courses I completed, as well as, the Research Project.

I admit it - I am not a rocket scientist. K-W gave me an option I had to work for to achieve, but I could see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Will I go back and get an RA Degree someday? Probably, because I enjoy learning. Currently, I am pursing the MSc at PW (CA approved); once I graduate, I am going to seek various certifications in HRM.

All the Best,

 

Ever get the feelings RJT gets paid for the number of times he/she brings up tired bogus arguments for the degree mill known as K-W? Does he/she really believe the circular logic that gets laid out repeatedly and is clearly false? Is it possible this person ACTUALLY believes these false arguments?!

 

RJT,

You continue to ignore the following points raised here and in the past.

1. You continue to ignore the fact that what defines the value of a degree is the MINIMUM requirements. You keep going back and using irrelevant figures and make general claims about average and specific examples of maximum credits. Requirements means the MINIMUM requirement. Anything above the minimum is NOT part of the requirements. The minimum requirement is NOT an associates degree. According to your own calculation, K-W bestows a Bachelor's degree for a pathetic 87 units. It should be at least 120 units and your claim that the minimum of 60 units to get admitted to K-W is totally bogus. There's little doubt that K-W's undocumented test would not really validate 60 units of credits. It would take at least 2 weeks of testing to validate that many units. Also, from what I've seen and heard, K-W does absolutely no validation of "work experience" credit with even minimal academic rigor. So that means no units are really earned for work experience at K-W. It's just part of K-W's sales hype.

2. The only claim I've even ever heard to any K-W academic rigor is the actual classes. There's far more to a university than just its classes. There must be academic rigor at admissions time as well and K-W falls flat on its face there. Even the claims of academic rigor in the courses is a paper tiger argument because the K-W courses have not been evaluated by any independent organiztion like you would see at an accredited school.

3. Show me a list of graduation requirements for the various K-W degrees. You can't do it because the graduation requirements are apparently assigned by the K-W SALES department! This is the way degree mills work, universities do not work this way.

4. K-W used to use the very dishonest tactic of lying about accreditation. You yourself falsely claimed that this was the "worst violation" indicator of a degree mill. Please reconcile your position.

 

Some how I doubt this will happen. There are tons of evidence, public opinions, journals and newspapers that have tried to warn people against KW, nevertheless, you still have students that are loyal to KW like RJT. The only thing is left to say to any prospecy student for KW, is that it takes about 2 minutes with the help of the internet to get all the information that can turn down any prospect employer. The worst is that I found some people in latin american and europe that claimed to be researchers because of their "KW" PhD, the whole KW scam is mainly targeted towards the international student. Few people outside the US know that the WY license is a joke and think that is worth something, this helps to deceive potential employees and accept the KW credential as valid.

 

To RJT

Why in the world do you endure all of this constant bashing? I guess it's because you start the thread and open yourself up to it. I did that once and got slammed bya few people.

I know NOTHING about KW and I myself would not study there given the wide range of alternatives that provide a basis for an accreditted degree but I respect your choice of it as a place to acquire knowledge one someway shape or form.

Since I am not paying your tuition I don't feel I have a right to denigrate your choices. I am not, nor should anyone else on this board be threatened by your choice of KW.

Yes, yes, I know....one who obtains a substandard degree will have to defend it forever yada, yada, yada. R/A, DETC, CA, WY, LA approved, degree mill, unacreditted, etc. Sheeeeeeesh!!!!!!

If a KW graduate said that their degree is equal to Harvard's then I would say they are crazy but the amount of hair splitting and intollerance on this board for other's educational choices astounds me. Maybe that's what makes it so interesting but if I were RJT I would grow tired of the fight and move on. If I were to do a " self study " program I certainly would not let it be known on THIS board.

I think I'll start a new Yahoo group titled " understanding and tolerant distant learners"

Rafael

 

This sentence fragment is interesting.

Use of the word 'The' in "The differentiating differences" suggests that the following criteria are not just handy rules of thumb, but are actually definitive of the difference between degree mills and legitimate schools. That's going to need some additional argument.

Use of the phrase "illegal degree mill" kind of stacks the deck. Have we determined yet that degree mills must be illegal, or are legal degree mills possible?

I agree that in almost all cases, this is a necessary requirement for academic legitimacy. But I don't think that it comes close to being sufficient. Probably most of the schools that I would consider degree mills are legal wherever it is that their mailbox is located. There have to be credible standards and a reliable mechanism to see that they have been met.

I agree that the degree has to be earned. The question is what that means.

I'd suggest that it means that candidates have to demonstrate mastery of the knowledge and skills expected in a normal university syllabus appropriate to that particular degree. That includes the full breadth and depth of the material.

I don't think that these demonstrations necessary demand formal classes. I think that prior learning assessments are legitimate, so long as they are credible and reliable. They must involve actual examination on the material, not just the school's assumption that it must have been mastered upon receipt of a student's resume.

All faculty (not just adjuncts) must have appropriate qualifications to teach.

I agree that courses must cover the material at the expected level. This can't be hit or miss. There must be sufficient courses or other assessments to cover the entire syllabus.

I agree that this is valuable as a consumer protection measure.

I think that it's more important that any school granting advanced degrees play a role within the wider academic and professional communities.

While I agree that his is valuable, I don't think that it helps us distinguish degree mills. In fact, this function is all that some degree mills are.

I think that this is largely irrelevant. Many degree mills use .edu addresses, and many fine schools don't. This criterian tells you virtually nothing.

I agree that it's extremely important for a school to be upfront about its status and not to mislead students and their employers. But many degree mills are completely honest about not being accredited.

Or it will grant qualifications for work that isn't appropriate (qualitatively and/or quantitatively) for that particular degree level. Many substandard schools require work of some sort, but that work doesn't keep them from being substandard.

Or else it is legally operating. Most mills are legal wherever it is that their mailbox is located.

More and more are doing that in an attempt to get what Degreeinfo calls "GAAP" status. But others are content to move their mailing address from state to state within the US, in search of places with the least regulation.

 

Personally, I've written posts about many state-approved schools that I like. I've started whole threads on them. I was expecting (and perhaps hoping for) some flames, but they never came. My posts were ignored (as usual).

But I wasn't trying to generalize my own approval of my pet schools beyond myself and perhaps a small cadre of students in special situations. And I think that I was able defend my pet schools' academic credibility.

That's not really a very controversial position to take. I think that 90% of Degreeinfo readers accept that some state-approved schools have some valuable programs, at least for some students.

But RJT seems to be arguing that Degreeinfo embrace both KW and the degrees it grants as equivalent to an accredited school. Unfortunately, KW does not have a very good reputation around here (perhaps for good reason). That creates controversy.

What's more RJT acts as an apologist for state-approved programs as a whole, arguing that Degreeinfo widen its scope of acceptance from accredited programs to state-approved programs in general. That creates even more controversy.

If RJT simply said that some state approved programs might occasionally meet the needs of some students, then I don't think that there would be the response that we are seeing.

 

Re: To RJT

RJIT only claims that KW is as good as an RA degree because some faculty members that teach at KW also teach at Stanford (Hey! who wouldn't mind the extra 2k for few hours of work), because they transfer credits with the same standards as RA institutions, because the course work has the same rigour as RA institutions and so on. He is basically telling prospect students, that they will get top quality education (at the RA level) and the will end with a degree that has WY state approval that according to him is the "only" requirement for a degree to be valid since only states have the "legal" authority to approve degrees. This seems to me like a "BIG" lie that of course causes a lot of controversy. If some one wants to improve himself by taking correspondence courses or by taking KW courses it is a valid consumer's choice, but trying to mislead the public by saying that they will end with a piece of paper that is worth something is a big lie.

 

Re: To RJT

That fact that you indicate that you know nothing about KW is exactly why you don't understand about the reasonable and legitimate arguments against it.

For my own research, I applied to K-W for their Executive MBA Program. I was accepted and told I could get their MBA by completing 4 courses and a thesis. Also, the courses would be of my own choosing. Examples of course requirements for an executive MBA from some very unheralded an ordinary legitimate colleges range between 12-16 courses. KW would have required me to complete just four.

I am seriously interested in how you equate this to hair splitting. How few courses would it take for you to no longer consider the criticism to be hair splitting?

 

I joined DegreeInfo around one year ago and during this time I've witnessed the philosophy of most Senior Members change, to a level where they:
1. Are now totally intolerant of all 'unaccredited' degree awarding
institutions
2. Believe that all 'unaccredited' organisations are 'degree
mills'
3. Believe that all 'unaccredited' organisations have nothing to
offer
4. Believe that all 'unaccredited' organisations should be
eliminated
5. Etc., etc., etc.
Surprisingly, it's only a year ago since one of these senior members suggested that if I wanted a recognised DL degree I should enrol with Kennedy-Western of Fairfax. My how things change!
One important point that these members should appreciate is that without 'unaccredited' institutions DegreeInfo posts would become somewhat boring.

 

This is simply not true.

Does anyone here believe that the National Test Pilot's School (A California State Approved, non-accredited school) is a degree mill? Does anyone believe that this school has nothing to offer? Does anyone believe it should be eliminated?

Anyone????