Accredited/Unaccredited??

Ah yes, the old debate between good and evil, or is it about something else. Will there be more learning, and improved knowledge from the 6-12 months at Thomas Edison instead of using California Coast? No ,don't fool yourself. This debate isn't about education. It's about how quickly, easily, cheaply, can I get a piece of wall paper that will make someone believe I know more than someone else. Will my skills and knowledge be greatly increased by choosing short term ACCREDITED over SHORT APPROVED? Just how much more will a quickie accredited degree improve your skills? Very little!!! Is the guy with the quickie degree from Chadwick or CCU trying to fool someone? YES!!! What about the guy with the quickie correspondence degree from the accredited school? YES,YES, YES!!! We should be concerned with the end result of the process and what knowledge gain has been achieved. What the degree should show is the end result. Instead we measure the process that has been used to get there rather than what was gained. Are we all trying to fool someone? OF COURSE!!! If you want to learn somethong. Go to the library and check out some good books and improve yourself. If you want to make other people think you know more. Get a piece of paper with the right letters stamped on it.

James C.

 

I agree, to some degree

Ever since I have joined this forum this issue has almost become an obsession with me. I find the divergences of opinion fascinating but I think that the ethical issues surrounding accreditation/approval/utility/acceptance and the use of degrees will never be resolved.

I don't think that everyone who has a diploma hanging is out to "fool" someone. After all, a client once told me that " a title buys you 50 cents and a cup of cofee if you are no good at what you do". And he was right.

Having said that I think that having multiple degrees and diplomas hanging on the wall is a good thing because all things being equal most clients will not view thier displays as a negative.

I am a huge proponent of academically acceptable degrees not because I think that RA is the only correct path but because there has to be SOME standard. That standard however is only as applicable as the situation calls for. If you don't have an RA degree as a first degree I think your'e crazy. The general public just isn't ready to accept alternatives. But MBA's and DBA's from RA schools? Why? Simply because SOME people won't accept them? I don't think that this is a good enough reason.

As far as the actual learning and the reasons for doing an actual program, as has been pointed out many times in this form, the question is what do you want? Knowledge or the letters behind your name and what will be the utility or acceptability of the degree.

Can you get the same education at a library or a bookstore? Of course you can. If you want to save a TON of money go to for example, any DBA curriculum that is listed in a school catalog, go to Amazon and type in the subject listings, select an appropriate textbook, design a curriculum, read and study each of the texts, make sure that you actually read it and apply it to your particular situation, take the time to select a topic of interest to your particular business situation and complete what would amount to a practical DBA dissertation solving a real problem relative to your organization.

You could skate through an RA DL program if you simply wanted to take open book test proctored by user friendly people or you can actually do what I suggested above and actually LEARN something. Does this method make your knowledge inferior? No, not if you learned more than the student who skated through.

Going back to the ethical dilemna that plagues us all. If you are really doing this to gain knowledge, you do the work, are not trying to " buy " a degree and explain how you came about this diploma what is the real difference?

I am NOT advocating mills. I have a good RA CV. I am saying however that one could just as easily design a competent curriculum, have it reviewed and by a trusted and open minded professor ( one that understands the value of LEARNING as opposed to merely obtaining a degree ).

In this scenario I can see where someone ( Not me, at least not now ) would defend a St Regis, Concordia type of degree.

Rafael ( who has no degree mill diplomas )

BS Western state University, Fullerton, CA
JD " " ( ABA )
MBA Pepperdine, Malibu, CA
MS Kansas State University, KS ( 2003 )
DBA ( looking )

 

I also Agree somewhat...

I do agree in principle with some of your ideas. I myself have trouble reconciling the "BA in 4 weeks" 0->120units as 100% okey dokey but
yet "let the flame begin" if you have a CCU/SCUPS/{Insert CA Approved Degree Here} especially since many of those programs are quite legitimate. I'm also not a big fan of "If you live in Oregon you're committing a crime..." argument and sometimes the way it's presented almost seems bullying which is pretty bold considering it's unchallenged legislation.

Thanks,

 

I think James C. is disingenuous in referring perjoratively to "quickie correspondence degree from the accredited school."

They are quick only if you have acquired significant knowledge elsewhere, either through coursework or independent study.

 

Yes, but then you come to the very subjective part. Who will rate these bits of lifetime experience, and why should they even have this power. If you and I take the same test a score can be arrived at, but if we take totally different paths the result will be different. As long as we rate the process and not the result we will have different paths all leading to different results. Then we sit down and try to compare the variable results. There must be a way of testing the end result. A degree mill says that a person deserves a degree without rating knowledge. A lesser legal school chooses to give maximum credit for life learning. Better schools, accredited or unaccredited, choose another standard of measurement. The most difficult schools have their own method. All these different standards make the end result completely different from each other. There is no way of saying at what level someone should be judged. I've taken courses from many schools, good and bad, over the past 25 years, and have found the results baffling. If your lifes history can be made to almost equal a degree from a good school. Then a degree mill that does almost the same thing is not that bad. If a degree mill stinks 100% then the good school must stink 80%. Six to 9 months corrrespondence does not equal the material covered in years of study. I wish they did. Home study has been my path. I enjoy it and will continue in this manner. I have degrees and diplomas from various schools, good,bad, terrible. I do not have anything that is any way equal to a good degree earned by doing a lot of hard difficult study day after day for years. I'm proud of the efforts I've put forth and of the results, but Harvard will not hand me a degree nor should they.
James C.

 

Re: I also Agree somewhat...

The BA in 4 Weeks is a concept and one that can be made a reality if you already have the knowledge. Take a school like Excelsior, the paradigm is not where you obtained your knowledge and but ythat ou have the knowledge for the degree. Using approved sources that meet accreditation standards you are assessed on what you know. Consequently, you have a lot of opportunity to demonstrate that knowledge. Thus, if you have the same knowledge as someone from an accredited school and can pass the exams you have demonstrated that you have equivalent degree knowledge and thus are able to an RA degree.

This is quite different than many state approved schools who may simply provide credit and a degree based on a resume review or worse just a payment. Neither method is academically acceptable. However, if based on my job experience I can put together a portfolio for credit that can be legitimately evaluated then I am able to receive some credit in this manner. MEthods available for credit are:

Approved Exams
ACE Approved Courses
Traditional sit-in-the-seat course
Accredited online courses
Accredited Independent Study (Correspondence)
And in Excelsior case you can also get specially prepared faculty exams to cover a body a knowledge (I met a gentleman who earned his degree in Juadic studies in this manner).

Thomas Edison, Excelsior, and Charter Oak can provide sound assessment for an entire degree program without having to take courses directly from them. Thus, a BA in 4 week can be a reality for some but for most people it will take longer.


John

 

I guess to James C. I would say that most distance learning programs are not quick, even though some schools advertise "accelerated". This is especially true if you are an adult with a variety of competing priorities. There are examples of degrees that can be achieved quickly through testing for credit, but those are exceptional, most don't go that route.

The degree at the end of a course of study shows you had the fortitude to complete the prescribed RA/NA/SA program at a passing grade which is an indication that you may have learned something. After that it's up to you to do something with it.

I don't get the point about trying to fool someone... there is a difference between formal education and learning. One can duplicate the reading of any prestigous degree program e.g. Harvard, MIT, etc. but at the end you still haven't been formally educated.

 

You are confusing new learning with assessment of learning which has already taken place elsewhere. There's nothing suspect about prior learning assessment. Even the prestige universities allow students to challenge classes.

Of course, the process has to be credible and trustworthy. That's where issues of accreditation arise.

That's a pretty cynical atitude.

If a person really knows his or her stuff, and if that knowledge was credibly and reliably assessed, then where does the "fooling someone" part come from?

 

Re: I also Agree somewhat...

I agree that the idea of starting cold, at average layman's knowledge of an academic subject, and then testing your way to a bachelors degree in a short period of time, simply by skimming study guides and trying to beat tests, is bullshit. It probably won't work, and if it does it's pure degree-mill. Frankly, if this kind of thing is possible at TESC or elsewhere, it should be a matter of real concern both to the college and to its accreditors.

But I do think that a more responsible and restrained use of prior learning assessments, by people who really do have some solid prior knowledge of their subject, is fine and great. This will probably require some serious review and the additional study necessary to rectify the almost inevitable gaps in preparation. The assessments themselves will have to be credible, reliable and not easily beaten.

There are several CA-approved schools that I like, and I would have little hesitation about enrolling in them if the circumstances were right.

Where I object is when people try to argue that CA-approval is equivalent to accreditation or that accreditation doesn't matter.

 

It doesn't matter who does the math.
9 Months doesn't equal 4 years.
I have a Ham Radio license- Amateur Extra - call sign KF5K
I had to learn advanced electronics and CW at 20 words per minute. If you want a ham ticket now all you need is 5 wpm.
This means that 5wpm=20wpm
and 9 months =4years, but not if someone sends code at 15 wpm then it hits the fan. If a potential employer asks about the degree being by correspondence you'll find out just how much a correspondence degree =a degree with your can sitting in a chair for 4 years. I think highly of correspondence learning but most people will not consider them as equal. Employers don't want to hear the word correspondence, and unless asked you better say nothing. Ask yourself this question. When I mention my degree do I say it came by mail or do I just let them believe it was by residence. I sincerely doubt that many of us deep down believe them as requiring the same effort. Only when there is some definition of what an outcome means will degrees by mail be equal. The path to a degree depends on who you're dealing with and how bad he (she) needs more students to keep the department open. We have no general consenous as to what represents knowledge and how to obtain it. We apparently all know what we don't like, but we can't agree at all as to what learning and knowledge is. You can't get there if you don't have a destination. All this argument about accredited and unaccredited is about some variable pathway to a unsure destination. One man's degree mill is anothers wonderful education. In the end it mostly matters what you think about what you've done. If you're satisified with the school it matters little what I think. Just don't get too caught up with paper . When you die your next of kin dumps it in the trash.
James C. KF5K - 20wpm

 

Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

I don't have any problem with a diploma from authorized/approved/accredited schools, nor with the length of time required to receive them. My point is that quickie diplomas are much closer together than some admit. I don't see that a quick accredited diploma offers great advantages over a quick legal diploma from an approved school. I have both types of diplomas and have found success and failure with both. I rate degree mills a F, approved schools a D-C, and accredited correspondence schools, C-B. My first Diploma was around 1973 from a real degree mill called Lane College. It was really bad. From there I went to accredited and unaccredited courses from the University of Tennessee, To Chadwick, International Correspondence School, North American Correspondence School, National Technical School, American School, Residence classes at Northeast Community College, Several Bible Schools- from bad to better. I'm sure there are more correspondence courses I've taken, but you get the idea. You can't explain to a job interviewer how you worked at Uncle Johns shoe store while at the same time getting a degree from a school 1000 miles away. Nor can you explain to a man that spent 4-5 years getting his degree how you managed to get yours begining Jan. 1st, 2003 and graduated Oct. 1st, 2003, really looks bad on the job application. I've had a friend look at my diploma on the wall and ask where the school is. He said he'd never heard of it. I explained about distance education and at the end he said he'd heard of such things. He also added that he would never put one of those things on a wall. I had a job interview many years ago in which the man really went after me . He really let me know in uncertain terms what he thought of correspondence diplomas. My son just finished High School by correspondence. His school is regionally accredited, state accredited and by the DETC. You can't get more accredited than that. When he went to get his drivers license we had to produce extra documents. When he went to enroll at a College we had to do more and he had to take an extra test. In fact we did much more paperwork to prove his accredited school was as good as the mediocre ones around here. A local student hand delivers his transcript while my son had to get one mailed directly from the High School. Here is what I've been trying to get across. Accredited correspondence diplomas will often set off red flags and you had better be prepared for them. Job interviewers may ask you about how you worked in one state and got a degree across the country. How did you earn a degree in only 7 months. They will ask these things, believe it. They've asked me, I know of what I speak. They've asked my son about his excellently accredited school, and he's had to explain to the College and to a nosy woman plus snooping teenager. People who know you, are related to you, work with you, are familiar with your life, know where you've lived and what you've done. Be prepared to explain the paper on the wall and how you got it. The questions will be raised for California Coast or for any accredited distance school. In the past thirty years I've told my story when necessary to the best of my ability,but correspondence is not accepted by everyone and it can cause problems, but I would still do it all over again. It's worth it and will work most of the time in most situations, just know that there will be times when all types of correspondence diplomas go BANG!!!!
James C.

 

James C: "Employers don't want to hear the word correspondence, and unless asked you better say nothing."

John: Do you have any evidence of this? Here's some of my evidence for believing you are wrong.

(1) In the first major study of this matter (Sosdian and Sharp, National Institute of Education), 81 out of 81 major company HR people said they would accept the degrees of Edison, Excelsior and Charter Oak as equivalent to non-correspondence ones. (A subset went further and said they prefer them, since it shows the employee is capable of unguided independent work.

(2) During the seven years that I was involved in marketing the Heriot-Watt University distance learning MBA in North America (1991-98), we went through more than 1,000 corporate approval processes from people who wanted their company to recognize (and in many cases pay for) the degree. We made sure the decision-maker knew it was a distance degree. More than 98% of these approval processes were successful.

(3) Rich Douglas' doctoral research, involving lengthy questionnaires completed by more than 300 corporate HR officials, will also support these sorts of findings.

 

Re: Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

I think you're right about the possible misunderstandings over correspondence degrees. Those who are so inclined could use the image of a matchbook cover degree as a means to denigrate you if given the opportunity. A correspondence based degree doesn't have the panache of a traditional degree earned on campus. (I cringe everytime I watch "Miracle on 34th St." at the scene where the store's owner asks his jerk staff psychologist if he got his degree from a correspondence school!!) ...it's been 50 years and we're still suffering from that one.

ON THE OTHER HAND, unless the professional person one is speaking to has just spent the last 10 years in a remote place (where they would have benefited from a distance education), they should have an understanding and an appreciation of external degrees and may know they have been around for over 100 years. Not to mention the great strides education has made due to multi-media delivery (voice, video, data) and internet communications for information exchange and research. As a working adult, one shouldn't have any trouble explaining that this option represented the best way for them to meet their responsiblities while expanding their education. And, given that most major universities subscribe in some manner to distance or external methodologies, I don't think the mechanism should require much defense. .... also, don't let people get caught up on the term "correspondence" as it can connote a negative image to some... move them to a more modern image.

 

Re: Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

Interesting, I didn't know that any school fell into that category? Can you please name the school?

 

Hi James,

There many problems with what you posted,
other than being simply your opinion and your
experience there. And for you, they may be valid,
but the experiences of others is quite different.

Example? I know what amateur radio is, and
so do you. But many others have nary a care
nor interest. Does that therefore make this
hobby of nearly 40 years here of no real value?

Just because they don't know what "it" is, or
have a high view of the hobby?

The same goes for DL verses B&M degrees. You
can't simply pitch them all in or out of one bucket.

Ditto on the way the exams for the ham exams
are given today verses the old way ... does that
make a ticket from 1972 any more useful than one
obtained in 2002? Or 1962 over 1972 ... or ...

Degree programs can be compared in similar fashions.

What I took as to EDP170 setting in a classroom over
20 years ago has ZERO value as compared to what
a student can learn today on-line about computers.

When I was a hiring figure, we checked to see if
the degree(s) came from a RA program, delivery
method did not matter, GPA and 'did they complete
what they started ?' mattered, after being a RA school.

IF the program was not RA, then we either discarded
the application or began a much closer review of the
applicant. For those who did complete a RA program,
via whatever means, while being employed full-time etc.
indeed that was viewed as a positive impression.

By the way, I have been interviewing with various
opportunities and NO ONE has asked anything as
to the delivery method of the course work which I
completed. They know with my past responsibilities
that the course work had to be accomplished via
some method other than sitting in a classroom, and
they view such, again, as a positive indicator.

Have I been asked if the schools are RA? Yes, and
that has been the only question as to the type or
quality of my academic experiences. Most of the HR
people are aware of the many changes and positive
alternatives that DL offers today for their employees.

You indicate you have some, perhaps much, experience
with the 'less than wonderful' types of settings. What
or which RA degree(s) do you presently hold there?

Thanks,

Billy

AA/BA - TESC
MBA - Touro
Ph.D student - Touro

 

Yes I agree here, James's argument was too much into 'his' experience. My employer actually thought it was great I was looking into UofP when they interviewed me (it came up I didn't have a BS degree and they asked about my education and I said "Im looking into online programs like UofP" and her eyes lit up.)

I do however agree with some of your opinions as stated in my earlier post but I cant agree with those statements not reflected in fact.

Thanks,

 

Re: Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

Want to share a recent experience, I went to apply for a faculty position to Devry, as you know they have distance learning, well the person responsible for hiring, is a brick and Motar graduate, we spoke about how I got my degree, my feeling is that she was not paying attention, when I sent her my resume, she stated: " I did not know that you study at Iowa, how you end up there?"


I don't quite know the reason for this remark or question, but that was the situation, I have other people which of course ignorance would say that the degree I have obtained, even is regionally Accredited is not a real degree just because was done Online, I guess you can't make no one happy. But I see this will change as time progress.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

The way I see things is that people will find something wrong with degrees even if there is nothing wrong with it. Let say you have to graduates from top University and both have the same level of education and grades etc..., if they can't attack at each other education they sure will atack something else in there professional and or personal live to try to bash at each other.

What the hell, I seen rich people having an argument, refence who has more money, and if money is not the issue, they will find things like you fail on this, I am more succesful that you and it goes on and on. Is not limited to education.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Accredited/Unaccredited??

Ah yes, human nature and the need to be first and right, and in many cases at the expense of others. Isn't it lovely...