California National University

Hello, friends.

I am an international student just starting a BS in Mechanical Engineer degree at this CNU. Have any of you heard anything wrong about this institution or its program?

Thankyou.

 

No, they seem to be operating well. It's hard to judge these things, of course, without actually attending. Perhaps there is someone here who has.

Consider asking them to forward your contact information to a few students or graduates so you can get a feel for the program from their point of view.

Remember that CNUAS (their full title) is accredited by the DETC. While the DETC is a recognized accreditor, degrees and credits from schools accredited by the DETC are less acceptable to regionally accredited schools. While degrees from DETC-accredited schools enjoy higher levels of acceptance from employers, they, too, are less acceptable than those from regionally accredited schools, especially when employers understand the difference.

 

I don't think that they have ABET accreditation, either, which may affect your eligibility to take the F/E and P.E. examinations.

Nosborne, JD

 

Thanks for your reply, guys.

This program is not ABET accredited. I contacted them (abet org.), they do not accredit distance programs, and seems like this organization is the maximum authority in engineering programs. Now that I have already started is there anything I can do after getting my degree, to make it acceptable?.

I appreciate your help.

 

I assume that you mean, besides just getting a new degree. Also, I assume that you really mean making it more acceptable.

A degree that you already have can be made more acceptable by only applying for jobs where it is already acceptable. Note: this suggestion is really a joke since it's not really helpful.

The only other way I know of is getting lots of experience so that the importance of the degree is made to be less when compared to your experience. In other words the combination of experience with the degree really makes you more acceptable.

 

Dear Heck:

Greetings.

ABET will not accredit any fully distance ENGINEERING program (distance Engineering Technology programs can be ABET accredited), but they will accredit mostly distance engineering programs. The obscenely expensive (depending upon where you live) distance engineering programs at the University of North Dakota (RA/ABET) are examples. Most course work is done by distance, but you must travel to North Dakota for short periods of lab work. Tip: considering your name, I don't think you'd be comfortable in ND during winter. <g>

BTW, I think that the UND degree program is the only distance BSME RA/ABET accredited degree available, but I won't guarantee it.

N.B. RA = "Regionally Accredited": Very important, and quite different from "Nationally Accredited", which is DETC.

Another problem with CNU is that it is "only" DETC accredited. There is no reason to suppose that DETC course work is in any way inferior to RA course work, just as there is no reason to suppose that a maffia-run waste removal company is any better than an honest waste removal company. In both examples, bad things can occur, should you make the wrong choice. <g> For example, my local Professional Engineer licensure board (NY) does not even consider a DETC accredited degree to be a degree! (They will accept an ABET Technology degree, but they don't value it as highly as an ABET Engineering degree.) The "United States Office of Personal Management" does not require an ABET degree for government Engineering positions, according to their "Qualification Standards for General Schedule Positions", "GS-800: All Professional Engineering Positions", but the combination of alternate requirements and/or experience required in lieu of an ABET accredited degree are daunting at best.

An RA BSME would be a far safer bet than a DETC accredited one. (There is an unfounded prejudice against DETC degrees in SOME circles, but there is no prejudice against RA degrees in any circles.) I doubt, however, that there is any possibility of your finding a RA distance BSME. This is based upon the dearth of options I've found for a RA distance BSEE. The nearest alternatives that come to mind would be a BSGS (BS in General Studies) with a concentration in "Engineering Science" from (RA, but NOT ABET) Charter Oak State college (www.cosc.edu, they would issue the degree, but you'd have to find the actual course work elsewhere, and you'd need to take some physics lab classes somewhere too.), or "Mechanical Engineering Technology" degree somewhere.

IMPORTANT: As I recall, CNU has extremely generous credit transfer policies. They will allow you to transfer in quite a large number of suitable credits from RA colleges. If you do nothing else, you SHOULD take advantage of their transfer policies. Find out what non-major courses they will require (english, math, physics, etc.) and get them from a regionally accredited university (BYU and Ohio University have quite a large offering; UND also has a significant selection, and UND will allow you to apply an unlimited number of (only) their own suitable correspondence course to their distance engineering degrees.) Of course, if CNU changes its policy while your studying elsewhere, you're screwed. Such is life. <g>

ABET runs a shill outfit <g> called ECEI for the purpose of determining whether the education of foreign engineers meets "substantial equivalency" of ABET educated engineers. They stress that they evaluate individual educations, and not, like ABET, degree programs, but it seems obvious to me that, if student "A" at AnyCollege is found to be up-to-snuff, his classmates are too. I suspect that this sort of lucid reasoning would severely cut into their profits -- they do charge for their service -- and is therefore discouraged. I mention ECEI because, even though they are intended to review the educations received from non-US schools, I wondered if they could be used to review educations from non-ABET US schools too. I doubt that they would be cooperative, or that they'd approve of a distance engineering degree any more than ABET would, but my attempts to verify my hypothesis have thus far failed.

Another unverified hypothesis of mine, which you might find useful, would be to keep careful notes of *all* your course work at CNU (assuming you pursue your degree there), and then use the course work as fodder for Portfoilos/Experiential Learning based credits at one of regionally accredited colleges that are amenable to such credits. Then, at a significant, by not extreme, added expense of time and money, you MIGHT (or might not) wind-up with a DETC BSME degree and a RA BSS/BSGS (Bachelor of Specialized Studies or BS General Studies) degree. I don't know of anyone who has done this yet, but I don't know of anyone who has been prevented from doing so either.


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek


Links:
------
Loosely grouped by subject, but in no particular order.

ABET: http://www.abet.org/
Engineering Credential Evaluation International (ECEI, an ABET subsidiary):
http://www.ecei.org/

University of North Dakota, Distance (RA/ABET) Engineering Degrees:
http://www.conted.und.edu/dist_engr/

UND non-Engineering Correspondence Courses:
http://www.conted.und.edu/creditcorre/correspondence.html

Aside: UND is having a "Multicultural Awareness Week". Why? The population of ND is, AFAIK, monolithic: Cold, White People. Why don't they have a "Tropical Beach Awareness Week"; it would be as applicable. <g>

United States Office of Personal Management:
http://www.opm.gov/

OPM Qualification Standards for General Schedule Positions, GS-800: All Professional Engineering Positions:
http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/sec-IV/B/gs0800/0800.htm

California National University for Advanced Studies:
http://www.cnuas.edu/

Ohio University's Independent and Distance Learning :
http://www.ohiou.edu/independent/

BYU Continuing Education:
http://ce.byu.edu/index.dhtm?extend=1

Regional Accreditors:
http://www.degreeinfo.com/ras.html

 

In SOME states, you could go to work for an engineering firm without the F/E and earn some years of experience doing engineering. After three or four, you could then take the F/E without regard to your degree. I have also heard that some boards will grant a year of experience credit to the holder of a non ABET degree.

It seems to me that NCU gets a hell of a lot of money for a non ABET degree, though.

Nosborne, JD

 

Dear Nosborne:

Regarding your recent post:

"In SOME states, you could go to work for an engineering firm without the F/E and earn some years of experience doing engineering."

I have personally verified that in at least one state (and I think there are several), one needs only a high school diploma in order to take the FE/EIT "Engineer-in-Training" exam (although a bit more learn'in might be necessary to actually pass the exam <g>). Clearly the requirements vary widely from state to state.

Generally, based upon my research and NOT my experience, state boards require some combination of experience and education before issuing a license. The precise requirements, as I mentioned, vary widely, but it is *usually* only the need for experience, not education, that is insurmountable. For example, there are at least several places where (if memory serves) you can become a P.E. without an engineering degree, but I don't believe there is any place where you can become a P.E. without some sort of experience. And, of course, some places might require so much experience that you might not actually live long enough to meet the requirement. <g>


"It seems to me that NCU gets a hell of a lot of money for a non ABET degree, though."

In fairness to CNU, they are not as mercenary as they could be. Grantham College of Engineering (www.grantham.edu), the major source of distance DETC BSEE degrees for decades, now only issues EE Technology degrees (and other degrees not relevant to this discussion). Considering CNU has no competition, and they have generous credit transfer policies, they're cost really isn't so bad, assuming you put any value at all on a DETC engineering degree.


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

I truly appreciate your comments. It is complicated, about all this accrediting thing but in conclusion, it is better, safer or at least more reliant to go for an ABET accredited.
Is not that I am going to work in the U.S., but the Department of Education of my country accepts the degrees accepted in the U.S. without hesitation or doubts, you know, whether it is regionally or nationally accredited. Most of the companies down here are Transnational, from U.S. or Europe. It means that if I show to them a degree from the States, you know what they are going to focus on.

Mr. Kanarek, I’ve written a mail to University of North Dakota to get more information, I don’t know if people need to go to their facilities in order to do labs or they have other facilities across the country to make it easier on students

CNU is probably the only one offering these type of degrees thru fully distance program and like you have mentioned, it is not as expensive, it still is quite an investment. I think it wouldn't be fair that after burning one's brain out studying to get a degree, it would turn out to be of bad quality or of doubtful sources.

Again, thaks to everyone. You have been very helpful

 

Dear Mr. Heck:

It is a pleasure to assist, in any small way, a fine, polite, respectable gentleman such as yourself.

As a rule, UND does require you to travel to North Dakota, USA for the required labs. Perhaps it is possible that you could arrange with UND to do the required lab work locally. Perhaps you might even be able to find an amenable local institution that would work with you. I would think that the chances of either are *extremely* remote, and that your odds of being able to do both are all but non-existent. Sorry.

Since I have no idea where you're writing from or what your financial resources are, I can't be sure but I would assume both the regular trips to ND and UND's tuition are quite out of your financial reach. The costs would be prohibitive to most Americans, and we live here. <g>

Regarding the acceptance of American degrees in your country, you may want to make sure that DETC accredited, distance degrees are welcome too. An American Degree is usually assumed to be a traditional degree, earned by physically attending a "brick-and-mortar" campus of a regionally accredited college or university.

To review, because you want to do something useful (engineering) rather than useless (like Business Administration or Theology <g>), you have very few options, and none of them are particularly good. (Again, if you're willing to settle for an Eng Tech Degree, your range of choices improves significantly.) Still, any degree -- so long as it isn't fake or financially bankrupting -- is better than no degree. At some point you're going to have to ignore us punters, make a decision, and take your chances. I sincerely wish you the best of luck!


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

It is a pleasure to assist, in any small way, a fine, polite, respectable gentleman such as yourself.



To review, because you want to do something useful (engineering) rather than useless (like Business Administration or Theology <g>),


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek [/B][/QUOTE]


----


Curious that one who admires politeness deems it appropriate to slam the disciplines of others. So what the theological schools of, say, Harvard or The University of London are teaching is useless.

Nothing prideful about you , Bubba

 

Dear Bill:

Greetings.

While I like & appreciate politeness -- especially in other people! <g> -- I like to think of myself as a sort of loose "canon" (pun), savagely hurling vicious truths at the unsuspecting. I feel that the quasi-elderly, such as myself, have earned the right to be curmudgeonly, much as the not so elderly have won the right to ignore our sage wisdom. In short, Dr. Levicoff is sort of an idol to me. <g>

Least I antagonize you any more than I have already, I will not reply to your previous question. I will also not ask you what Christ's alma mater was, where Muhammad did his grad work, or if Moses had a regionally accredited degree. I will only say that I think there is a great deal wrong with the world in general, and academia in particular. Please pardon me if I occasionally rail impudently/impotently/impertinently at some of the more grievous outrages.

Nothing personal!


Cordially (Really!),
Richard Kanarek

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/

I support the troops, your son, and, most importantly, the U.S.A.!

 

---



Dear Richard



I'm unsure what your point is re the schooling of Christ or Moses or Mohammed. However, were these somehow thought to be by you wisemen, then why would you suppose the study of their teachings to be useless? And do you suppose the engineers of the pyramids had university degrees?

Congratulations on your idolatry of Levicoff. Do you suppose he deems his doc in Religion, was it not, useless?

As to age qualifying you to spring your "vicious truths" on the unsuspecting, I am 62 so somewhat see your point . So I can forgive you for your stupid comment.

Thankyou for your kind remark about my son, the troops, and the USA. At least we can agree on these things if not the usefulness of Religion. Of course I forgive you. I hope you can forgive me for naming you " Bubba".

(Even if it fits) ,




---

I am not seriously antagonized, and have enjoyed our little spat!

 

One thing you can do, Heck -- or try to do -- is encourage CNU to have its courses evaluated by the American Council on Education. DETC-accredited courses that are also blessed by ACE seem to have a higher level of acceptance, at least by the regionally accredited schools. The process is described on the DETC website, www.detc.org, where they also list those of their accreditees who have done that process.

 

Sounds like an excellent idea. I was pondering about University of North Dakota, but as mentioned by Mr. Kanarek, it is too expensive and way out of my reach.
Thank you Mr. Bear, seems like C.N.U. is my only chance. Actually, a friend of mine that attended Case Western Reserve, reviewed the degree curricula and was very impressed. Too bad ABET does not accredit distance programs

 

Dear Dr. Bear:

Howdy.

Regarding your recent post:

What an excellent idea -- and I'm not just saying so because I thought of it roughly six months ago. <g> This is part of a reply from CNU I received when I proffered the suggestion:

"As an accredited University, there has never been any need for our courses to be ACE evaluated."

Humm... How unfortunate. It would fit so wonderfully into my own degree plans if their courses were ACE reviewed. I guess my needs don't count. :-( You'd think I'd be used to it by now. :-(

Perhaps they will pay more attention to Mr. Heck, who is (I think) a matriculated student.


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

I am not sure of how to approach the issue but I hope they pay attention to what I have to say. Perhaps, Mr. Kanarek has any tip to share.
I’ll keep you guys posted.

 

Tell Lollie Horn that I thought it was a good idea (which I do).

That might have a 9% chance of something happening.

 

Dear "Heck":

Regarding your recent post:

Oh, believe me, you don't want MY advice on how to deal with a bureaucracy! <g> Following Dr. Bear's advice would *have* to be a better idea. <g>

Do keep in mind that, even if CNU's classes were to suddenly become ACE reviewed (www.acenet.edu), that would (more or less) "only" (greatly) increase your ability to transfer credits from CNU to a Regionally Accredited US school. Were you not to try to transfer to a RA college to complete your bachelor's degree, or apply to another RA college to obtain a second bachelor's degree, ACE review would be of little use.

In the likely event that CNU doesn't suddenly ACE review their course work, at least keep careful records of what you studied at CNU, how you studied it (i.e. what books you read, etc.), and proof that you studied (notes, completed homework, etc.). It will be a handy reference later on -- you never know when you might need to look something up -- and, should you wish to transfer to a US RA college, the notes *might* come in hand for "Portfolio Review"/"Experiential"/"Lifelong Learning" credit.

Do let us -- or at least me! -- know how things proceed with you and/or CNU!

Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

Dear Dr. Bear:

Regarding your recent post:

Perhaps you yourself could mention to her that at least on current CNU student (Heck) and one prospective CNU student (me) would be quite keen on having CNU's course work ACE reviewed. Considering that there is a dearth of distance engineering course work available, yet there are at least a few schools that allow individualized/specialized/etc. concentrations that could include engineering course work, perhaps there is a market for ACE reviewed engineering course work? (Of course, the market is probably tiny, and advertising ACE review would probably draw unwanted attention to the fact that they need ACE review in lieu of RA accreditation, but you don't have to mention these points to her. <g>)


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek