More on Accreditation and Unaccreditation

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by cehi, Mar 29, 2003.

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  1. cehi

    cehi New Member

    Depending on which side of the road that you are driving, it is unbeleivable the wealth of information that is out there regarding RA, SA, NA, Unaccredited, and all the others. Based on my learning from this site, it still seems to me that there are divergent views or definitions for "accreditated", "unaccreditated", "degree mills", and diploma mills." I have no doubt that the discussions will never end. The more I read all these information, the more I understand the arguments for or against all the relatedness.

    Obviously, RA seems supreme. However, if State approved are "inferior" as alleged in this forum, why has the White House published some individuals that have been nominated for Federal posts with State Approved degrees/credentials, i.e, California Coast University (CCU). If CCU is a mill, why would it be listed in a Presidential document as a credential strength of the nominated candidates? I have learnt a lot from this site. The sites below provides more soothing or headaches depending on where you stand. Thank you.

    http://www.web-miner.com/deunaccredited.htm

    http://web.archive.org/web/19991117023500/http://cust3.iamerica.net/easywave/top10.htm
     
  2. Anthony Ciolli

    Anthony Ciolli New Member

    Perhaps the position may not require an accredited degree?
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I would be interested in seeing these nominees with unaccredited degrees that have been chosen by the President for federal posts.
     
  4. cehi

    cehi New Member

    Bill Huffman Remark: " I would be interested in seeing these nominees with unaccredited degrees that have been chosen by the President for federal posts."

    Cehi Reply: Correction - I expressed "nominated" previously. I meant "appointed" I hope the sites below provide the information to your feedback. It is strange, but these unaccredited, state approved are out there (unexpected, but happens). There are other sites that members on this forum have previously provided in terms of the White House nominations. Thank you for your feedback. Also, I read your interesting piece on Ph.D Fraud. I hope it was your article. Thank you.

    http://www.defenselink.mil/ra/bios/walker.html
    http://www.fema.com/regions/x/2002/r10_08.shtm
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/05/20010518-8.html
     
  5. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Many would argue that these individuals did not need the degree to obtain the job. However, by the government listing legal but state approved degrees in their bios, the degrees are acknowledged, none the less. Else the gov't PR would list no degree, or just regionally/nationally accredited.
     
  6. aa4nu

    aa4nu Member

    "Many would argue that these individuals did not need the degree to obtain the job. However, by the government listing legal but state approved degrees in their bios, the degrees are acknowledged, none the less. Else the gov't PR would list no degree, or just regionally/nationally accredited."

    And MANY would be quite CORRECT!

    Your attempt to stretch this point is without
    any substance. For if <IF> no degree is required,
    why would PR bother to confirm the type of degree
    held by the holder? Much less, PR doing the ground
    work done normally by HR? ... PR had some blanks
    in the bio, and was looking to fill in those slots ...?

    PR: Say ... please send us ANY degree info for our list?

    Person with non-RA degree: Wheuuu ... PR! ... for a
    moment, I thought it might be HR asking ... Sure, here's
    my ($199) Ph.D ... gee, thanks for asking!

    Their bios are just that ... bios ... the degree being listed
    there adds to no value to the degree program, but adds
    risk to the holder of that degree now being 'discovered'.

    What you are proposing is that if I go to France, I am
    therefore French. And that would be just like a non-RA
    degree, ... another bad choice ... at the moment! B-)

    Or try at your next job interview, when HR states that
    they consider RA only degrees ... Try waving this same
    example with them and see where that gets you?

    How many times are you going to have to defend your
    non-RA degrees? All the time ... which is what you spend
    most of your time on this board trying to do.

    Whatever possible utility there is, it is always going to
    be LESS than one from a RA school. Period.

    Just my electronic 2 cents worth.

    Billy
     
  7. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Billy:

    I am not ure of the stance you are making.

    Are you claiming that if a degree is non-RA/NA, it is therefore a $199.00 degree?

    Or, that the only reason the gov't. PR listed the CCU/PWU degrees was merely to fill-up space where an RA/NA accredited only degree should be listed?

    Are you therefore claiming that CA Approved Degrees should not be listed; that State Approved Degrees, while earned legally, should not be indicated within Bios?

    Please elaborate, as I was just expressing an obervation based on what the thread starter conveyed.

    Thanks,
     
  8. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I don't agree. A bio is a bio. If the person said they had 2 children and they really had three (one child from a one night stand), what would be true? Just because it is listed in a bio does not mean it has been certified as truth...or does it?
     
  9. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Randall:

    Your comment makes sense. This is the type of response I can respect. On the other hand, I interpreted Billy's comments as expressing that state approved degrees are not worthy, or, are vastly inferior to be credibly listed within a Bio. While perhaps less utility, it is my feeling that if the school is properly state registered and approved, such as CCU, PWU, CPU, SCUPS, and the degree is earned, meaning courses were taken, a thesis written - it is certainly worthy of stating within a Bio, where the school's accrditation is not required, but the school is legally state approved.

    If, on the other hand, a State Approved Degree holder knowingly applies for a job that requires Regional Accreditation, that degree holder should not be suprised if he/she is denied an interview. The same could be said if the government bios required Regionally Accredited Degrees, than a presentor of CCU, or PWU would be wrong, and the degree posting retracted.

    Thanks,
     
  10. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I very much agree. A bio is simply a bio. I suspect that these people likely had the job before the particulars of their resumes were even known.

    It would have been much more interesting if the unaccredited degree holders had been nominated rather than appointed. At least then it would have meant that the adminstration expected the unaccredited degree to stand up to congressional scrutiny.

    RJT got a degree from Kennedy-Western and has been trying to desperately justify it ever since. RJT, I do wish you luck but would just like to remind you of two things.

    1. You have almost no chance of convincing anyone here that unaccredited degrees are the smart way to go.
    2. Even if you did manage to convince someone here that an unaccredited degree was a good idea, it still wouldn't raise the value of your degree mill degree. CCU is orders of magnitude better than the degree mill you got your degree at.
     
  11. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I earned my BS from CalCoast and list it in my bio for the company I work for. Does that mean I needed that degree from the position I hold? I earned it after I started working there. I only needed an AA/AS for my position.

    I will also list my MBA from CalCoast, BS from COSC, and MS-ITM from TUI (when I finish) but that does not mean anything.

    If RJT is trying to desperately justify a Kennedy-Western degree, I suggest he ask himself this question -
    "If I feel comfortable with my degree, why do I find myself trying to explain how good it is?"
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    If someone offers you a ride home, you can reasonably assume he/she means in a car. If you're walked out to the bus stop, you might start asking questions.

    If you order a hamburger at a restaurant, you can reasonably assume you will get some combination of bun, lettuce, tomato, onion, and ground beef patty. If it comes with alfredo sauce, you might start asking questions.

    See, these are called reasonable assumptions which, if violated, raise "red flags." Claiming a college degree also comes with a set of assumptions, one of which is that the degree comes from a legitimate school. Legitimacy, in this case, almost always means accreditation. People assume your degree comes from an accredited school. They normally cannot discern the difference between accredited and unaccredited schools. To them, there are two categories of schools: accredited and degree mills.

    Listing a degree anywhere leaves people the impression you earned it from a properly recognized school, an accredited one. Listing a degree from an unaccredited school leaves a false impression with people. Or is that the intent?
     
  13. RJT

    RJT New Member

    A Beer instead of a Burger??

    Rich:

    I am not sure where you are going with this.

    Are you saying that listing even an earned State Approved Degree, on a resume, bio, or the like, is deceptive to the public at large, as mostly everyone assumes that the school is automatically accredited, despite the fact that legally operating schools may exist within the US, which allows for the operation of authorized State Approved/State Registered Postsecondary Degree Granting Institutions, and that in the US, accreditation is still a voluntary process?

    I am not saying that State Approved Degrees are on par with Regionally Accredited schools, but State Approved/State Registered schools like CPU, PWU, CCU, SCUPS and the like do fill a small nitch, where a possessing State Approved Degree would not be a hindrance, while the holder acknowledges that the degree may be of lesser utility. However, I do not feel that State Approved Degree holders are necessarily being deceptive, nor fraudulent - unless the holder states that his/her degree is Regionally Accredited, not State Approved.

    If someone ordered a burger and I handed him or her a beer instead, should I gain a tip?
     
  14. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    Rich,

    are you saying that any non-RA school should only be listed if you add a disclaimer?
    Are you saying that only accredited schools properly recognized?
    If you list a school on your resume/bio and it is a degree mill that is one thing, if it is a legit non-RA school it is another. The problem comes when no one can decide where to draw the line. If I list a CCU degree, do you feel I am being deceptive?
    Tell the truth, I won't get defensive or argumentitive.
    I have my own opinion of the work I completed at CCU. I would like to know what yours is.
     
  15. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    CORRECTION

    Rich,

    are you saying that any unaccredited school should only be listed if you add a disclaimer?
    Are you saying that only accredited schools properly recognized?
    If you list a school on your resume/bio and it is a degree mill that is one thing, if it is a legit unaccreditedschool it is another. The problem comes when no one can decide where to draw the line. If I list a CCU degree, do you feel I am being deceptive?
    Tell the truth, I won't get defensive or argumentitive.
    I have my own opinion of the work I completed at CCU. I would like to know what yours is.
     
  16. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    I believe that now is the time someone mentioned that the Union Institute and University is a regionally accredited school for bottom feeders.

    I would never say such a thing because I am much too polite.
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Grow up.
     
  18. Regardless of the standard-- whatever it is, if there is one-- that the public affairs officer applies in determining what's included in an appointee's press-release bio, it's fortunate that they're executive appointees and NOT applicants for Federal civil service jobs. If they were, their unaccredited degrees would be rejected out-of-hand for purposes of meeting qualification requirements.

    Kinda tells you something about how the country's largest employer views state-licensed unaccredited institutions, huh?
     
  19. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: A Beer instead of a Burger??

    I'm not Rich, but I'm gonna give my opinion here.

    I think that the core issue here is the informative content and the truth of the claim that's being made when a person tells others that he or she has an "earned degree".

    When somebody claims to have a degree, he or she is making an implicit claim about the standard and the content of the work that was necessary to earn it. That's precisely why other people find it informative to learn what earned degrees an individual has. It's why employers inquire about it, why licensing boards have education requirements, and why the general public is impressed by academic titles.

    If a particular "degree" could mean anything at all, then it would mean nothing at all.

    Telling the truth is still a voluntary process, but where would communication be without it?

    Telling somebody that you have a 'B.A.' or a 'Ph.D.' is like telling another person that a watch is a Rolex. The degree and the watch might not really meet those standards. That doesn't mean that they don't have some utility for the person possessing them, but it does mean that some dishonesty is likely taking place. People are being induced to behave in ways that they might not if they knew the truth.

    People are making claims about the quality of their educations whenever they claim any degree at all, not only when they claim an accredited degree.

    Accreditation is simply a mechanism that helps to see to it that institutions are roughly on the same page when they award the same degree. I don't think that accreditation is the fundamental issue here. The fundamental issue is that thing that accreditation exists to preserve.

    I'm very willing to accept some non-RA schools. I've occasionally started threads on state-approved schools that I like a lot, most recently on the Expression Center for New Media in Emeryvile California. Most of these schools don't offer DL, and I post on them precisely because they demonstrate that quality can't be simply equated with accreditation and that we need to exercise some discernment.

    But once we start talking about individual discernment, about being personally convinced by a particular school, we have changed the rules of the game. What was once a community-wide recognition of unknown schools on the basis of trusted third-party evaluation becomes a matter of individual or small-group taste, whether informed or not.

    Without an accreditation process, objective standards are reduced to educational aesthetics.

    Nevertheless, some works do have great artistic merit and some state-aproved schools are very good. Unfortunately, most aren't.

    Simply claiming to possess a non-accredited "degree" and expecting everyone else to defer to it as if it were an academic degree isn't on. People need to be convinced why they should. Most "Rolexes" sold on street corners aren't real Rolexes. There is no obligation to assume that they are, and lots of inductive evidence suggesting that it's wise to assume that they aren't. The burden of proof falls squarely on the holder of the non-accredited degree to rebut that assumption.

    Graduates of non-accredited institutions need to be prepared to sell their institutions and their educations to a skeptical public.
     
  20. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    They are acknowledged by whom? As being what? And what obligation is there for anyone else to agree?

    If an individual chooses to earn a non-accredited degree and then to list it on a resume, that's probably a personal endorsement. Its persuasiveness depends on what we think of the individual and the school.

    If a government PR flack sees fit to list it on a website or on a press release, that indicates that the flack in question doesn't consider it an embarrassment (or doesn't care).

    If a high government official (or a nominating committee acting in his name) sees fit to nominate a holder of a non-accredited degree to high office, it's evidence that the nominating party didn't find the degree disqualifying. It's even conceivable that the nominating party was impressed or influenced by it, but we don't really know that.

    Basically, I'd consider these examples of government appointees with state-approved degrees to be very positive for the schools involved. They are valuable endorsements, and they can be used as evidence to support the assertion that these schools are sound.

    Nevertheless, they certainly don't demonstrate the truth of that assertion. Nor can they be generalized into conclusions about all state-approved schools.
     

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