Concord article

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Nosborne, Mar 4, 2003.

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  1. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

  2. sshuang

    sshuang New Member

    Baby Bar

    It will be great if they can waive the baby bar requirement.
     
  3. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Dunno about that. The Baby Bar is actually a consumer protection device, believe it or not. Concord's Baby Bar performance has been less than stellar, poorer indeed than that of older straight correspondence schools that are much cheaper. I'd like some assurance that their program actually prepares its students as well as the usual Cal Bar approved program before I'd agree that the Baby Bar is not necessary.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  4. sshuang

    sshuang New Member

    Baby Bar Passing Rates

    Believe it or not, the baby bar passing rates for ABA students who took the exams are actually lower than those from correspondence law schools. The baby bar passing rate is low because ABA and Calbar want to monopolize the market. Do you know many of the students from correspondence law schools are highly educated professionals with many years of experiences in their fields?
     
  5. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    In general, the VAST majority of graduates of Cal Bar accredited and ABA schools never take the Baby Bar. The group you describe is not a cross section of graduates. Look at the fine print; they are folks who got into trouble in traditional law schools. The data don't compare.

    Take a look at the comparative BAR passage rates between ABA/CalBar and correspondence. For the most part, ABA/CalBar schools have MUCH higher Bar passage rates than correspondence programs do, and the correspondence graduates have by definition either already PASSED the Baby Bar or gained exemption from it through a year of study at an ABA/CalBar approved school. In effect, you are comparing substantially ALL ABA/CalBar grads with a selected subset of correspondence grads who have already demonstrated the ability to pass a law exam.

    Good old Oakbrook seems to be some sort of exception. I'd love to know how they do it.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  6. sshuang

    sshuang New Member

    I totally agree with you that the passing rates for correspondence law students are lower. However, lower passing rates do not mean they know less about the law. There are also exam taking strategies involved in the process.

    Once a graduate from Harvard Law School, who had already passed the CA bar exam, told me that she basically had to abandon what she learned for the past three years and studied full-time for three months to pass the exam. Do you think a busy professional like a doctor or CPA will have the luxury of taking three months off to sutdy for the bar exam?

    In addition, I don't really think the sizes of libraries and numbers of full-time professors of the ABA law schools have anything to do with the quality of those law schools.

    Well, what do I know, you are the lawyer.
     
  7. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    I saw a wonderful bumper sticker this morning. It was red, white, & blue, and it said "Save America - Close the Law Schools."
     
  8. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Well, I am no supporter of the ABA. I like the English system; BA in law followed by a year of Bar or Law Society practical training followed by a year or two clerkship.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Here's a list of issues that the article said that the CalBar was looking at:

    What is unique or different about legal education in comparison to any other form of higher education which utilizes online or so-called distance learning techniques?

    I think that the crucial distinction here is between theoretical knowledge and practical know how. DL is good with the former, but often weak with the latter. None of this is unique to the law; you see the same thing in science. You can learn theoretical physics by DL, but it's very hard to become a skilled laboratory experimenter that way. So, what practical lawyering skills do law schools impart in person?

    Do students lose something by not being in a classroom that cannot be replicated online? Does that, in turn, affect the soundness of a legal education and the quality of legal minds produced in that process?

    Assuming that the quality of the professors is equivalent, and that students have adaquate chance to interact both with faculty and with one another, I see no reason why purely intellectual outcomes have to be any worse.

    Is there something about the social interaction that exists between or among law students and faculty members in a traditional law school environment that contributes in some meaningful way to a legal education?

    I'm assuming that they mean "social" to mean emotional/affective. People do relate differently on-line and in-person. Obviously the networking aspect will be relevant here. How much of a law graduate's subsequent success is due to contacts, recommendations and such-like attributable to friendships made in law school?

    How important or necessary is hands-on clinical experience?

    I'm not an attorney. Nevertheless I'll pontificate that this is the crux of the whole deal right here.

    As I understand it, California not only allows non-ABA law school graduates to sit for the bar, it also allows students who have studied law by apprenticeship to sit.

    So why not inject a little of the latter into the former? Make it a requiremnt for DL law students to serve some period of practical apprenticeship under a suitable attorney or judge. This would create an opportunity for the student to get experince handling clients, perhaps in appearing in courtrooms in some carefully defined circumstances, and it would create some local social-networking opportunities.

    The article says:

    In addition, an externship program has enabled some Concord students to be placed in local communities and has included work for a Brooklyn legal aid clinic, a district attorney in California and a judge in Virginia.

    Perhaps this sort of externship needs to be expanded into a required portion of the curriculum.
     
  10. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Seems to me I remember British-American or somebody offered a California Bar qualifying correspondence JD to people doing the apprenticeship thing. I wonder if that program still exists.

    Nosborne, JD
     

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