Oregon, again

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Nosborne, Feb 3, 2003.

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  1. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    A private e mail inquiry caused me to actually (gasp) READ the Oregon statute that creates the ODA. A couple of interesting things:

    1) Use of a non-ODA approved degree title in Oregon is NOT a crime. The statute provides for a warning, followed by a CIVIL penalty. Note please:

    -use of such a degree in connection with business COULD constitute fraud which COULD be a crime, and

    -civil penalties can HURT since they include attorney's fees.

    2) There is not a SINGLE reported case that I could find at any level in the Oregon court system that touches upon ODA. Not one. We don't know whether ODA would survive a state or federal constitutional challenge. The most probable explanation for this situation is that ODA and the Attorney General have thus far declined to use the Courts to enforce the statute.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Does this mean that being convicted for using a non-ODA approved degree would be little more than getting a parking ticket or seat-belt violation?
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    What the statute does is to give legal definition to the value of those degrees. If someone used one of these "bogus" degrees in another state to get a job the most that could be hoped for is just a termination. In Oregon if the damaged party had been damaged significantly enough then they would have a far better chance of winning a civil suit in order to recoup those damages. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember a case in another state where an employee who was terminated after it was discovered that he had one of these "bogus" degrees turned around and sued his employer for wrongful termination. He lost but still that kind of ridiculous suit wouldn't even get off the ground in Oregon.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Whatever happened to that guy with a Berne PhD at a community college (wasn't it in Oregon). I seem to remember that he was ordered to stop using the title 'Dr.' and the degree but that he filed suit and the community college was supporting him.

    North
     
  5. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    North:

    Thank you for confirming a hazy memory for me. It WAS an Oregon school and a Bern PhD, wasn't it? I couldn't remember.

    Re: Parking ticket analogy. No. A parking ticket actually IS a small matter, criminal in nature but of little consequence. A civil penalty could cost thousands of dollars. Violation of an injunction could mean jail for civil, or even criminal, contempt.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

  7. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Interesting. He has a couple of publications and a good MA so, for the community college world he's all set. The PhD is lagniappe. I wonder why he bothers to create unnecessary controversy?

    Nosborne, JD
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The acceptance of his Berne Ph.D. could lead to higher pay and promotions, along with whatever prestige might come along with the title. Motivation enough, I suspect.

    Rich Douglas, who hopes for more pay and promotions, but who isn't pursuing a Berne Ph.D. Can't imagine why.
     
  9. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Or maybe it's a sort of free speech demonstration? Academic freedom and all that? Still, it's hard to believe he didn't KNOW Bern was a questionable school at the time.

    He apparently put in the work, at least, according to the community college folks.

    Maybe I need to rethink my aversion to the NW Cal JSD...

    Nosborne, JD
     
  10. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member


    http://www.nwculaw.edu/programs_sdj.shtml

    Go for it - $4000 - just don't pretend you're smart afterwards. Around 200 pages and the degree is yours.

    After I finish an accredited MBA, I would love to take CCU's DBA. I would graciously insist that I not be called Doctor.
     
  11. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Oh, but's ALWAYS the way, even for honest-to-god PhD types. Only chiropractors and preachers call THEMSELVES "Doctor"!

    Dr. Nosborne, JD
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Never mind Chriopractors, but clergy have certainly earned the doctoral title by the time they complete their education (around 129 graduate hours between the MDiv & the DMin and that does not include a ThD which requires even more). Compare clergy with someone with a Touro PhD in Health Sciences & an MA at around 76 graduate hours.

    Seriously though, the person I knew who was most obsessed with his title was an EdD education professor who used that title in every situation I ever knew about (including in his role as a parent supporter for his kid's high school team).

    North
     
  13. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    You're right. I left out "educators".

    I think Miss Manners takes the traditional position that one NEVER takes a title to oneself under any circumstances, social or professional. It is for those addressing one to either acknowlege the title, or not. She extends this rule to include, believe it or not, "Mr.", Mrs.", Ms." and "Miss".

    She then hastens to explain that she does not herself actually violate this rule; "Miss", she says, is her given name!

    Dr. Nosborne, JD, Esq.
     
  14. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    She may be the one (or was it Paul Fussell?) who spotted the habit of Frank Sinatra being introduced as "Mr Frank Sinatra". The Bears also spoke in #14 of Doctor Miss Peggy Lee.

    Personally, I guess attending a Quaker seminary had the effect of making me uncomfortable with titles. The college I went to was pretty informal as well. As laid back as my church is--especially in its denominational context--I don't have a first name. It's "pastor" and that's that. I tried to change this, but it really upset people, so I quickly quit. I guess where titles are just used or not used kind of instinctively, nothing is wrong either way. It's the affectation of Dr Dr Dr Mill Operator or the "Hi, call me Fred" from an utter authoritarian that makes me queasy.
     
  15. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Isn't there something in the Christian Bible warning folks against religious titles?

    I agree with the "just call me Frank" queasiness. However, I think it the height of rudeness to introduce oneself as "Dr." this or "Mr." that.

    I would NEVER do that.

    Commander Nosborne, USNR
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Nor would I, SIR! Never, SIR!

    Captain Douglas, USAF (Ret.) :D

    (I gotta go soak my elbow; I hurt it saluting just now! It's been awhile....;) )
     
  17. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    I hate saluting.

    Just plain Nosborne
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree with you that someone should not introduce themselves as 'Mr.' or 'Ms' or 'Dr.'. However, it depends on the situation. If you are in an envornment where people are called 'Mr.' or 'Ms' then someone with a doctorate (real one) should be referred to by that title (a title they earned). To not refer to someone with a doctorate as "Dr." in a setting where that is appropriate may be indicative of a fragile ego on the part of the person without the doctorate and rude.

    In my work environment (large organization), I am a supervisor and my staff call me by my first name. I call my boss by her first name, and we call the Regional Director by his first name. It would be out of place to call one another "Mr." or "Ms" and yet there is no question of authority. That will not change when I earn a doctorate.


    Thought of another couple of anecdotes regarding titles:

    I once attended a class on court testimony and the attorney used *Esq* after her name (including on personal checks). She was proud of the Esq and told us that if we wanted to get in good with attorneys we would remember to use the *Esq* after their name in correspondence.

    A pastor I once replied to on another web site stated that he expected his parishioners to call him 'Pastor' as he was in spiritual authority over them. He however, felt that he was in no way obligated to return the respect and should be addressing the parishioners by their first name (they using the deferential pastor title for him). He bristled at the thought of him being expected to return the courtesy and call a parishioner "Mr." or "Ms". I let him know if I were in his congregation and he called me by my first name I would expect to be able to call him by his first name.

    Ahhh...the stuff we get caught up in.

    North
     
  19. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    My feelings exactly, North. I call everybody by their first name, so I scarcely expect them to "title" me back. They do, but I don't encourage it. The situation you describe was de rigueur in a ******* Lutheran synod; made me sick. Deference addicts.
     
  20. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Actually, there's some legal ethics opinions on the "esquire" business. (Wouldn't you know?)

    When law schools began granting the JD instead of the exactly equal LLB, the ABA and a few Bar associations opined that using the title "Doctor" was misleading advertising because it implied a superior level of legal education for the JD over the LLB.

    Esquire was allowed because "everyone is an esquire" including non-lawyers!

    Subsequent caselaw developments in the area of commercial speech overtook these opinions, however. Now, a JD who calls himself Doctor isn't necessarily unethical, merely silly.

    Nosborne, JD
     

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