Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

How about we forge a comprehensive DegreeInfo definition/template for a degree mill? We could then use this forum agreed standard, as an institutional measuring stick. We could vote on the attributes of a mill and prioritize them as part of a standard. Thoughts?

Here are few red flag bullets from the BBB:

Degrees that can be earned in less time than at a traditional college

A list of accrediting agencies that sounds a little too impressive. Some schools list accreditation by organizations that are not recognized by the U.S. Department of Education, or imply official approval by mentioning of state “registration” or licensing. When in doubt check with the Council on Higher Education Accreditation (www.chea.org).

Offers that place heavy emphasis on offering college credits for lifetime or real world experience.

Tuition paid on a per-degree basis, or discounts for enrolling in multiple degree programs. Traditional colleges charge by credit hours, course, or semester.

Little or no interaction with professors.

Names that are similar to well known reputable universities.

Addresses that are box numbers or suites. That campus may very well be a mail drop box or someone’s attic.

 

John: It's a noble idea, but it ain't easy.

>>Here are few red flag bullets from the BBB:

John: Ah yes, the same BBB that told inquirers, for 3+ years, that Columbia State University was legitimate (because they were a member), costing the public untold millions of dollars.

>>Degrees that can be earned in less time than at a traditional college

John: But 4 weeks is possible at regionally accredited schools>>

>>A list of accrediting agencies that sounds a little too impressive. Some schools list accreditation by organizations that are not recognized by the U.S. Department of Education

John: including the most prestigious business school accreditor, AACSB, and 7 or 8 traditional accreditors in fields ranging from veterinary to dance.

>>Little or no interaction with professors.

John: Heriot-Watt MBA, for instance: zero interaction necessary

>>Names that are similar to well known reputable universities.

John: Oxford Brookes, Columbia Southern, Columbia Union, Princeton Theological, etc., all with recognized accreditation.

I'm all for diploma mill awareness education, but, alas, it is very hard to develop clearcut rules.

 

Hummpf...

I was thinking of fully qualifying the parameters, but I see your point.

The more I get into this mill thing, the more insidious I realize it is. I certainly don’t want to turn into some kind of whacked-out, anti-mill crusader, but I feel obligated to do something! My guess is that quite a few feel as such here.

More that just the money, mills I now realize can devalue the whole person. The self-abasement of being hoodwinked, the mockery from your peers, the waste of time and effort, the entrapment of denial, all wrapped up in the inability to do anything about it much of the time. It’s a bloody shame.

Anyway, back to my much needed calculus refresher. I didn’t do as well my ego reasoned I would on the CLEP practice. Ugh…

Thanks John.


Cheers…Randy

 

Steve Levicoff had a most wonderful list that had seventy something items on it, IIRC.

The problem is two fold.
First, the definition of degree mill is inexact and also subjective.
Second, most things on the list are done by at least a few bona fide schools. (like your single payment for a whole degree thing)

 

Too Late, OracleGuy!

Too Late, Randy!

You have already become an anti-mill crusader! Your level of being whacked-out will depend on how obligated you feel to do something.

And you are very observant, quite a few DegreeInfo regulars are indeed Anti-Mill Crusaders!

 

Re: Too Late, OracleGuy!

In fact, although not quite a regular, I would feel inclined to be a crusader (flashback to GW on his ill-advised use of his vocab--my daddy anyone) if I knew without a doubt what was or wasn't a mill. Sadly, with no personal experience in that realm, I remain mostly silent on the issue.

Tony

 

Re: Re: Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

72, IIRC. Steve's NIFI list was in reference to religious schools, however, most of the criteria would have been applicable to non-religious schools as well. While the NIFI list was an informative piece of research (especially for me), as you suggest, it was not a 100% definitive tool. For example, many of the individual criterion used in NIFI are also used by legitimately accredited schools.

The NIFI list did, however, bring to focus many of the unethical and deceptive practices used by mills. This would be an excellent piece of Ph.D. research for some Anti-Mill Crusader.

 

How about degrees that you "may have already earned"?

How about ... a list of memberships in legitimate organizations that have nothing to do with accreditation? For example, many dubious entities list membership in the U.S. Distance Learning Association. Anyone can be a USDLA member; it isn't a stamp of approval.

How about ... few or no names of faculty or administration in online or print materials?

 

Is it really NECESSARY to define a diploma mill? Surely the real question is, "Will the degree answer the legitimate need of the holder for which the holder obtains it?" If the answer is "yes", end of discussion. If "no", end of discussion!

Nosborne, JD
(who distrusts definitions)

 

Re: Re: Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

The latter statement is true, anyone can be a USDLA member. And indeed, many dubious entities list memberships in legitimate organizations, organizations which have no recognition as an accrediting agency.

I do think a caveat is in order. Unaccredited schools which hold membership in a legitimate organization, should not immediately be viewed as dubious. Indeed, some are, but not all.

 

Re: Re: Re: Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

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That's right!! I noticed yesterday a seminary on its website listed itself as a member of the Better Business Bureau. However as you urge, I entertained no dubiety for the seminary. Rather I began to doubt the Bureau!

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

Ee-gads, how many pages to your business card?

Here I'm struggling to gain my first "official" BSc. in the land of the giants; please watch where you step!

Cheers...Randy

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics Of a Degree Mill

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Randy

More than half of my studies since '59 have been because I loved my subjects. I didn't need more qualifications after '69, but a diploma at the end of a course is nice to get ; it speaks of discipline and of a willingness to follow a plan of study and to submit to direction. So I opted for degree programs as well as personal study to satiate my interests in both education and theology. At 62 I still love to study, mostly theology now.

Two listed below are "in progress" and are DL engagements just begun consequent to and resulting from my discovery of degreeinfo last March. Ones here guided me and I really appreciate that.

While I've given lots of thought about deleting it, I think I'll retain this list as my posting postscript for a while. But the list
hardly make me a giant. Rather it witnesses to the utility and worth of DL in general and of degreeinfo in particular. It also says that learning need not be over because we have begun our career. It says there is value in learning for the love of it. It says even us (me, not you) older guys still can take up the challenge to learn and grow. My list of "qualifications" hardly make me a giant it demonstrates instead the magnitude of the opportunity we have to learn in whatever areas or modes we wish.


Best wishes,

 

Degree Mill =

Diploma Mill:

1. No Coursework
2. Non-State Approved or State Licensed
3. No Listing of Faculty; or Listing without degree type/conferring school.
4. Allowable # of Transcripts, without $$
5. Claiming accreditation from non-recognized DoE org.

I feel that the state license provides a degree of credibility; even WY reviews programs within its boarders.

Number five is why I opted not to pursue Century; they claim accreditation, non-recognized by the DoE. Instead I opted for Pacific Western in CA, a State Approved curriculum, they do not claim accreditation. Also, K-W does not claim that they are accredited either; they state that they are state licensed.

Thanks,

RJT

PS - Oracle Guy - absence makes the heart grow fonder, miss you on the PUB, perhaps I'll have to petition for reinstatement.

 

Re: Degree Mill =

You seem to go with Joseph Goebbel's theory that a lie told often enough eventually becomes the truth. That's not going to work here.

First off, Wyoming has no "boarders", unless they're putting up transients in a spare bedroom. *

Within its borders, it does nothing to regulate schools except issue them a business license. There is no academic oversight or review. None. Which, of course, is why K-W is there in the first place.


Bruce

*I don't make a habit of criticizing grammar or spelling, but RJT's continuous butchering of both speaks volumes about his K-W......."education".

 

Re: Re: Degree Mill =

Joseph Goebbels received his doctorate from Heidelburg(erg?) University.

Okay you're right - who cares.

 

Dennis: Ya beat me to it.
It's -erg.
It's also not Heidelberg College (RA!) in Tiffin, Ohio (while we're at it.)

 

Re: Degree Mill =

I have been attempting to stay out of this fray, but sometimes the opportunities are just too good.

KWU - minimal course work
- non state approved (Wyoming does not "approve" schools, but is state licensed (note U of Wy is neither! - so State Licensing similar to a beauty college is good!??)
- web site does not list any faculty but does say they have good degrees
- according Oracle Guy they won't give out a transcript unless you pay! Okay this is good business practice.
- they don't claim any accreditation so they definitely are not claiming accreditation from non-recognized DoE org.


I'll give them a .25 on the first one, a full 1 on the second and third, a 0 on the fourth ands a .5 on the last

Score = 2.75/5 on this scale, definitely over half way there!

 

Here is a listing of some representative faculty:

http://kw.edu/faculty/fac_profile.asp

Their catalog lists many more.

I requested two transcripts, and I didn't have to pay for them. Even my RA school (BCCC) chareges $2.00 a transcript.

Check out the PUB, and you'll see they offer coursework.

Thanks,

RJT

 

Wow! RJT just backed up one of his statements with a reference to some facts. I am impressed. (Is this a first?) Not only that, seven faculty are listed! Seven faculty for what were you claiming? how many thousand students?

So let's see a few of your other statements explained. How about an example of an innovative education practice from K-W that will soon be emulated by RA schools, if the RA schools are smart. Remember this was another of your many grandiose claims that have not been backed up with a shred of specific detail.

Also let's hear why having a state license is proof that K-W is not a degree mill when many degree mill scams that have been closed down for defrauding the public had state licenses.

Let's also hear why K-W doesn't publish graduation requirements.

Let's also hear why K-W has bounced their mailing address around the country so many times.

Let's also hear why K-W won't accept students from California.

etc. etc.