Kennedy-Western & Cal Coast: Are they in the same league?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Guest, Sep 30, 2002.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    California Coast University is California State Approved, while Kennedy-Western University is Wyoming State Approved.

    But are they in the same league: academically, utility of degrees, etc.?
     
  2. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    While not an expert on this, I believe I can give a viewpoint analogous with a Human Resource professional who knows, like I do, a little about accreditation. Ceteris paribus, the CCU degree is the "better" degree, at least as far as an undergrad degree. It does have some oversight and is more close to the norm than the now infamous 5-7 classes required for a bachelors at K-W. At the graduate level, I have no idea, although I wouldn't guess they have much utility other than the knowledge gained. I am even suspect of nationally accredited grad degrees for the simple fact that, mostly, you get a grad degree to get a credential (licensing, move on to PhD, etc.). Of course, if you are lucky enough to live in California, this may be inaccurate, the CA approved degree might provide you with the ability to be licensed. Overall, whatever anyone may (rightfully?) say about ca approved degrees, I would have to believe they have more utility than a degree from K-W.

    Tony

    Of course, if I am wrong please correct me, I am always willing to learn something new.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Both are unaccredited. In John's survey of admissions officers, there was no significant difference in their acceptance of degrees from unaccredited schools in states with some oversight and those from states with little or no oversight. In academia, I'd say it was a push.

    There is no research available regarding the acceptability of such degrees in the workplace. I seriously doubt there is much of a difference. I'd like to see the first piece of evidence showing a company with a written policy accepting unaccredited degrees, much less one that distinguished between degrees from approved and licensed schools.

    That said, I still believe there is a considerable difference between K-WU and CCU or other California-Approved schools. While I've been critical about the efficacy of such approval, it is better than nothing. And "nothing" is just what K-WU receives from Wyoming. That's why it is licensed there. After all, K-WU was and remains located in California. It only moved its license in response to the elimination of the unfettered "Authorized" category.

    In sum, I believe there is a real difference in quality, even at the minimums of each type. But unless the school enjoys a unique acceptance despite its lack of accreditation (as some California-Approved schools do), there is no real, practical difference. And that is both sad and very telling.
     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Life is funny. Out of sheer impartial time-wasting, I was going to look at CCU and KW websites and compare the presentations point by point. After the big birdie flew by on the CCU intro, I got nothing but repeated script error popups. When I went to the KW site, I got 404'd.

    Maybe it's a sign. (We Carpathian peasants are prone to superstitions.)

    And, yeah, maybe the simultaneous posts attacking you at the so-called pub, Rich, are just coincidence. Maybe Judge Crater is living in my garage, too.
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    K-W must think that everyone reading the Pub is stupid. All those personal attacks by first time posters. They all suspiciously sound like Dr Whatshisface.

    These antics have even made me suspicious that K-W could even be the degree mill behind the attack on a.e.d.. I do note that one of the apparent K-W shills posted on the Pub that no one on a.e.d. had said anything negative about K-W in over a year and claimed that it seemed to indicate that there wasn't anything about K-W that they could bad mouth any longer.

    BTW Rich, thanks for the laughs over on the K-W Pub. I find it hilarious to see all the antics they're going through in order to attempt to combat the simple truths that you're speaking.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Forced to choose between the two (no other choices), I'd go with CCU, simply because, as already mentioned, there is at least some oversight.

    However, when all was said and done, both degrees would have the same utility for me. Zero.


    Bruce
     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Personally, I don't want to equate California approval and Wyoming licensing, since California contains some very good approved schools. I have repeatedly tried to stir sh.. (oops, I'd better not say that)... stir *debate* here by saying that not only are some of the CA-approved schools good, but a few of them are better than many if not most competing RA programs (at least for some students). I do think that the argument can be made.

    But is that a validation of the California approval process itself, or simply a recognition that it remains possible to create quality educational start-ups in a poorly regulated environment? There's a big difference between saying: 'some can be good', and saying 'all must be good'. The latter is almost certainly false.

    Could one argue that the lack of tight regulation (at least initially) might even be *valuable*? That it helps serve as an incubator of schools? California shows an experimentalism in higher education that one sees few other places in the world. We produce countless flaky schools, which are often fascinating precisely for that reason. And there are the occasional gems mixed among them. One or two of the latter go on every year to achieve RA, leaving California with a unique array of small special purpose institutes and graduate schools.

    But that presupposes that we have reliable ways of picking the gems from out of the muck. That means independent academic quality criteria must exist, separate from the approval itself. The accreditors perform that function for the community at large, and I would argue that professional, religious or special interest communities can make those kind of determinations for themselves as well.

    K-W and CCU?

    Academically, neither impresses me. Given the many superior options, I can't see much reason for enrolling in either one. Neither offers programs that are unique. Neither has developed any kind of academic or scholarly reputation that I'm aware of, despite churning out countless "Ph.D.s".

    Utility? Probably both would serve those who need a piece of paper as some kind of fig leaf, purely for cosmetic reasons. Assuming that academic reputation and accreditation status aren't considerations. But that comes dangerously close to one definition of "degree mill".

    I like a number of state-approved schools, and I am definitely willing to change my opinion of either of these schools. But they need to give me some reason why I should.
     
  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    The question was, I believe, whether Kennedy-Western and California Coast were in the same league. The answer is, most definitely, yes. Both institutions pass GAAS.
     
  9. RJT

    RJT New Member

    Choices

    Both are fully legally authorized by their prospective states to issue degrees.

    I cannot speak of CCU, but with the CA approval, it must be well regarded.

    KWU is evaluated by the WY DoE, and meets their requirements for state licensure to legally confer undergraduate and graduate degrees. WY DoE officials, who unanimously granted approval of their programs, visited KWU’s corporate office and KWU's license was extended thru 2006.

    Which is better, not sure but both are fully legal and legitimate degree conferrers. I am glad that such a variety of state licensed and approved schools exist.

    As for other Legal State Approved/Approved Degrees: Century U, SCUPS, CPU, PWU, and Bob Jones. Please note, other than BJU, all aforementioned schools are illegal in OR, which I feel is unconstitutional.

    RJT
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    To lump Bob Jones University in with that bunch is intellectually dishonest. While I'm no fan, they're hardly in the same league.

    K-WU is not licensed in its own state (California), nor may it enroll students living there. That pretty much sums things up.
     
  11. Re: Choices

    I will personally place a K-W bumper sticker on my car and cease all public criticism of that fine institution, accreditation be damned, if you can post a reasoned explanation for how, or why, Oregon's law and policy run contrary to the U.S. Constitution. I will also go promptly to the Pub and extoll your virtues as a constitutional scholar and of the caliber of K-W education in general. Make sure you include a discussion on specifically which parts of the constitution are being trampled.

    Wanna make this really interesting and agree that, if a neutral party finds your argument less than persuasive, you'll never, ever invoke the Constitution again in a discussion about K-W? By "neutral" I mean neutral to the discussion about constitutionality, not neutral over whether or not K-W is a mill.
     
  12. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Choices

    QUOTE]Originally posted by RJT

    As for other Legal State Approved/Approved Degrees: Century U, SCUPS, CPU, PWU, and Bob Jones. Please note, other than BJU, all aforementioned schools are illegal in OR, which I feel is unconstitutional.

    RJT [/B][/QUOTE]

    ======================================

    I think (don't know much about this) I should be impressed (with BJU) about my state approving (not mere religious exemption) BJU even though it is unaccredited. Only two schools fall into that "elite group." Hmmm... if BJU can get ODA approval, I just wonder why others in this thread cannot.

    Is it the unconstitutionality of ODA's selectivity or is it the unsubstantiality of those other schools?

    ======================================
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2002
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Choices

    K-W (and CCU) are not fully legal and legitimate as you claim. K-W has far more problems in this department than does CCU but it is illegal to use degrees from either in at least Oregon and I understand New Jersey.

    The minimum requirement to get a K-W Bachelors degree is not anywhere near standard. The standard is 120 s.h.. A near worthless K-W Bachelor degree credential can apparently be had for 5-7 classes plus a report. I say apparently because K-W doesn't even publish their graduation requirements! They apparently negotiate the graduation requirements for each individual student!
     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Choices

    You might want to reserve your login at The Pub. I believe it was David Yamada who suggested here (or was it Nosborne?) that the law might indeed be unconstitutional. Prior restraint, I believe, was the reasoning. I could be wrong, but a search of this board would likely reveal it.
     
  15. Re: Re: Re: Choices

    I dimly remember a thread to that effect. Nonethless, I won't be holding my breath while RJT finds a way to synthesize that idea into his/her own words.

    I can almost hear the dictionary pages flipping now. "Prior restraint?"
     
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Choices

    he-he I don't think Dennis is out on a limb on this one. For Dennis to lose his bet someone inparticular would have to synthesize and present an argument far more sophisticated than mill-speak or a 75-page K-W Bachelors degree "dissertation".
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Choices

    CCU certainly is. K-W is more problematic, since it is a California school that operates through an agent in Wyoming. For that reason I hesitate to call it a Wyoming school, and consider its Wyoming address an address of convenience.

    But more fundamentally, what does legal authorization mean? How should we interpret it?

    The obvious unstated premise there is that CA-approved schools are well regarded. Is that true? All of them? By whom?

    Then why is Wyoming careful to distinguish between WY licensing and accreditation? They say on their website's FAQ page that the latter is an academic QA process, while the former is a verification that Wyoming statutes have been met.

    Unanimously"? I have trouble believing that a state with such a tiny higher education sector even maintains a higher education evaluation office.

    And if they visited K-W's "corporate offices", what does that mean exactly? That somebody visited their agent in Wyoming? So what? Or did somebody actually visit Southern California, where K-W really is? Given that a London school and a Vancouver school also operate from Wyoming through agents, this could represent a source of cool junkets for Wyoming bureaucrats.

    I'll agree with you about "legal", I guess. I have greater doubts about "legitimate". What does 'legitimate' mean? How is it determined?

    Of course, the existence of virtually unregulated higher education creates serious consumer protection issues. These make it necessary for potential students and employers to exercise considerable caution and skepticism.

    Once again, I repeat what I said in my last post: If schools are going to operate in the absence of accreditation, we are going to need alternative forms of evidence for their academic credibility. I don't know of any in the case of K-W or CCU. And even if credible evidence is received, a potential student will still have to be fully aware that lack of accreditation will raise utility and acceptance issues. That's why I believe that such degrees are usually best employed in special situations.

    I'm sure the reason that BJU has OR-approval is that an application was made in Oregon to receive it. Any of the other schools you name could do that as well. Whether they would succeed is another question.

    As I've said, I think that there are some credible state-approved schools. Unfortunately, few of them are DL.

    But I'm underwhelmed with your list. I have issues with BJU personally, but it does appear to maintain a pretty rigorous academic standard. I think that it is one of those state-approved schools that can provide credible alternative evidence of its own credibility. But I'm less sure of the others in that regard. Perhaps they can, but I've never seen it.
     
  18. OracleGuy

    OracleGuy New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Choices

    That's 75 pages, double spaced with 1.5" borders all around the page, 12 pt font. Or about 20 pages of business formatted text! (inludes bibli. TOC. and references) Some 15 pages of real "meat".

    Cheers....R
     
  19. RJT

    RJT New Member

    All the best

    Thanks Oracle Guy. However, the 75 pages follows a strict format, and the abstract does not count; that is the minimal for a BA. I personally wrote a 110 paper, which had to go thru revisions prior to approval. If you'd really read the Pub you'd see how many students are challanged by this project, students that are already successful in business. Rocket Science, no, but easy, no! Why you continue to belittle KW is beyond me, if you are not happy, just move on and tharwt your anger positively towards your new studies. I realize that a State Liscenced school, which can legally confer degrees and has contained standards which it has shared with the WY DoE, enabling liscence renewal until 2006, may not be for all, but that is fine - nobody is forcing KW. The school has a good enough repuation to sustain it's continuance - with might I add, the state of Wyoming's granting of a liscence.

    All the best,

    RJT
     
  20. OracleGuy

    OracleGuy New Member

    RJT -- Thrill of the Shill

    Belittle KW? Pointing out the truth about how the 75 pages are formatted is belittlement? I think not. KW belittles themselves; they don’t need my help. BTW, I’d luv to be rid of KW and their questionable degree. Unfortunately, they lack the common courtesy of responding to my emails or returning my calls! Perhaps you could tap one of them on the shoulder for me OK?

    And while I’ve got the floor, I’ll say whatever I’ve got to say about KW on this forum within the rules of *THIS* forum. Clear? In my opinion, based upon hills of evidence, KW is a mill, scam, flimflam, thimblerig and ruse. Don’t like it? Oh well, guess you’ll have to go back home to the pub and get some KW sunshine blown up the ‘ol whazoo. But here pal, I’ve noticed something akin to the truth being trotted around and you are in the minority.

    Let’s start a vote, should RJT be “excused” from degreeinfo?
     

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