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  1. #49
    SteveFoerster is online now Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4cz28 View Post
    I am ashamed at how stupid the left has become. Washington Post is taking money from Russia and China to run fake news stories in their paper. The media black out on China, you know with the death camps and no freedom of religion. The hacking of our systems non-stop as well as the buying up anything and everything America. We need to all look away...that's right..look over at the Russians! The same people that can't even float half their naval vessels. The same people that get a sub stuck and can't move it because all the tugs keep breaking down.


    The Biggest American Companies Now Owned by the Chinese | Fortune.com

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKPjhDYvkfg
    I'm sorry, are Americans supposed to be terrified that a few Chinese companies are buying an American hotel chain, film production company, etc.? I'm old enough to remember being told to fear the same thing when it was Japanese companies. It was foolish nativism then, and it's no different now.

    The Chinese government is funding the purchase of our country right under our own noses and you guys keep taking the Muhhhh Ruusssiaa bait !!!!! Are you getting your news for the same networks that take millions from the Chinese?

    Media Malpractice: China and Russia are Paying the Washington Post for Positive Press! – The Last Resistance
    Is that ridiculous source supposed to impress anyone who's not already a True Believer™? The Washington Post does occasionally include clearly marked sections from advertisers, which is hardly "positive press", and a lot of countries take advantage of it, not just Russia and China.
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  3. #50
    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbwa shenzi View Post
    I think Russia is primarily interested in destabilizing the European Union.
    I don't think that Russia needs to. Angela Merkel and Jean Claude Juncker have done well enough destabilizing it themselves.

    The EU could do wonders for its future survival by responding to Brexit by backing away from (instead of doubling down on) its "ever closer union" mantra. "Ever closer union" seems to have become a euphemism for demanding the elimination of individual EU members' sovereignty and national distinctiveness. Many voters in numerous EU members aren't comfortable with the goal of their countries becoming mere provinces in a super-state ruled by foreigners, and in their becoming minority populations in historic cities that used to be theirs. (There's also the problem that the Euro-zone was badly conceived, but that's another issue.)

    My point is that the EU isn't in danger of collapsing due to anything that Vladimir Putin is doing. The EU is teetering because its elite leadership class is trying to impose their own utopian vision of a post-nationalist Europe on voters who still stubbornly identify with their individual countries and their own distinctive cultures, traditions and histories.
    Last edited by heirophant; 04-17-2017 at 08:46 AM.

  4. #51
    Stanislav is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    I don't think that Russia needs to. Angela Merkel and Jean Claude Juncker have done well enough destabilizing it themselves.
    Well, Russia disagrees.
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  5. #52
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    I'm not sure that it is an "either/or" proposition. Both can be true concurrently. I think that many people want to retain their national identities but I also think that Putin et al would like to get the band back together again, re-consolidate the former Soviet states again and push up against Eastern Europe in a more aggressive manner that would make them nervous. At the same time the refugee crisis is making people fearful (rightfully or not) about the changing demographics of their countries in a way that causes some to tighten borders, etc.
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  6. #53
    Stanislav is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I'm not sure that it is an "either/or" proposition. Both can be true concurrently. I think that many people want to retain their national identities but I also think that Putin et al would like to get the band back together again, re-consolidate the former Soviet states again and push up against Eastern Europe in a more aggressive manner that would make them nervous.
    ...making the EU a better bet for some countries to retain their national identities. I bet Belarussians who care about things like that wish they were in EU, rather than in the "Union State of Russia and Belarus" (this actually exists, at least on paper).
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  7. #54
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbwa shenzi View Post
    . And Russian elite soldiers are active in Hungary, providing training and assistance to the paramilitary forces of Jobbik, the Hungarian Neo-Nazi party. You know, the blokes who harass and sometimes murder members of the Roma minority and keep lists of Jewish politicians, artists, writers and university teachers.
    Sadly, Jobbik members don't seem to be alone in racism. Here's one of Viktor Orbán's Fidesz members:

    (1) Pay your fine for racism,
    (2) Go collect your prize

    A quote: “in the case of driving over a Gypsy kid, we should step on the gas,”

    Hungary gives award to writer fined for racism – POLITICO

    J.
    Last edited by Johann; 04-17-2017 at 12:55 PM.

  8. #55
    SteveFoerster is online now Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    I don't think that Russia needs to. Angela Merkel and Jean Claude Juncker have done well enough destabilizing it themselves.
    Juncker is feckless and weak, for sure. But what else was Merkel supposed to do? It's quite a balancing act to bail out profligate Mediterranean policymakers on the one hand while containing justifiable resentment among German taxpayers on the other.
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  9. #56
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    I bet Belarussians who care about things like that wish they were in EU, rather than in the "Union State of Russia and Belarus"
    That would seem to be true by definition.
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  11. #57
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    The EU could do wonders for its future survival by responding to Brexit by backing away from (instead of doubling down on) its "ever closer union" mantra. "Ever closer union" seems to have become a euphemism for demanding the elimination of individual EU members' sovereignty and national distinctiveness.

    Long ago and far away...

    I was in a company training class that included a young guy from Portugal. I expressed to him my doubts about the upcoming EU. In my reply to his asking why was that the French didn't want to be German and the Spanish didn't want to be Italian. That probably made more sense at the time than it does now and he got the message.

    The OWLs (One-World Lunatics) of the EU will do more damage from within than Putin could manage from without.

  12. #58
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by decimon View Post
    Long ago and far away...

    I was in a company training class that included a young guy from Portugal. I expressed to him my doubts about the upcoming EU. In my reply to his asking why was that the French didn't want to be German and the Spanish didn't want to be Italian. That probably made more sense at the time than it does now and he got the message.

    The OWLs (One-World Lunatics) of the EU will do more damage from within than Putin could manage from without.
    Very interesting experience from the past. Hopefully Le Pen can pull things out in the next few weeks and we can put this nonsense to bed.

  13. #59
    SteveFoerster is online now Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    Very interesting experience from the past. Hopefully Le Pen can pull things out in the next few weeks and we can put this nonsense to bed.
    In that case, Jean-Luc Mélenchon would be just as good, right?
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  14. #60
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    Very interesting experience from the past. Hopefully Le Pen can pull things out in the next few weeks and we can put this nonsense to bed.

    "He sounded like Jean-François Revel, a French socialist writer who talks about one of the great unexplained phenomena of modern astronomy: namely, that the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

    The Volokh Conspiracy - Tom Wolfe on Fascism:


    Despite all buttspeak, Trump is far from being fascistic and Le Pen not so far. But I doubt that she'll be allowed to go so far if elected.

  15. #61
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by decimon View Post
    "He sounded like Jean-François Revel, a French socialist writer who talks about one of the great unexplained phenomena of modern astronomy: namely, that the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

    The Volokh Conspiracy - Tom Wolfe on Fascism:


    Despite all buttspeak, Trump is far from being fascistic and Le Pen not so far. But I doubt that she'll be allowed to go so far if elected.
    The French election is a bit tighter than originally anticipated

    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...ur-way-contest
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  16. #62
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    The French election is a bit tighter than originally anticipated

    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...ur-way-contest


    It's probably that many French voters know there must be a change from their current spiral into oblivion. They probably understand that their standard sweet talkers will do no more than rearrange some furniture and call that change. So it may be time to send in the Marine, so to speak.

  17. #63
    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    In that case, Jean-Luc Mélenchon would be just as good, right?
    If France's relationship with the EU was the only issue in the French election, which it's not. And if Melenchon really means what he says -- and hasn't just seen which way the wind is currently blowing in France and is trying to recover some of the working-class support that has been going to Marine Le Pen.

    A huge difference between Le Pen and Melenchon in my opinion is that Melenchon is still basically a closet Marxist, said to still be a philosophical believer in 'historical materialism'. (Which would make him perhaps the last actual believer in Marxist theory on the planet, apart from some university faculties I guess.)

    It will be interesting to see what Merkel and Juncker's (to say nothing of Soros' and the CEU's) response will be if Le Pen and Melenchon finish as the top two in the first round of the French election. (While everyone has been obsessing about Hungary, France is the real threat to their project.) The EU's leadership just shrugged off Brexit as a peripheral matter, while talking darkly of 'punishing' Britain with stiff trade barriers to deter any other EU members from even thinking of leaving. But the spectre of France voting to leave the EU will be something that they can't ignore and can't just bluster their way through. France and Germany are the heart of the EU, its engine. If France leaves, the EU falls. So I would expect to see a far more conciliatory response and some new proposals for a looser EU relationship floated from Berlin, Brussels and the think-tanks.

    (Which would no doubt be greatly to Britain's benefit in the coming Brexit negotiations.)
    Last edited by heirophant; 04-19-2017 at 06:37 AM.

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  19. #64
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    In that case, Jean-Luc Mélenchon would be just as good, right?
    ........no

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