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  1. #1
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Low Graduation Rates

    Regional Accreditors to focus of schools with low graduation rates.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...low-grad-rates
    American College of Sports Medicine

  2. #2
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    25 percent 6-year rate seems like a pretty low bar to me, but I guess you have to start somewhere. I'd actually like to see the 6-year measure reduced at some point in an effort to address extra years of tuition, fees, etc. that students are incurring.

  3. #3
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    I don't feel graduation rates are low. College is supposed to be challenging. Everyone shouldn't be able to graduate.

    Tuition is too high. That's the real issue. I saw an ad for an MBA program that was over $100K. The academic world has gone mad... with greed.

  4. #4
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by LearningAddict View Post
    I don't feel graduation rates are low. College is supposed to be challenging. Everyone shouldn't be able to graduate.

    Tuition is too high. That's the real issue. I saw an ad for an MBA program that was over $100K. The academic world has gone mad... with greed.
    I disagree with the bolded statement. College have admissions standards and employ college success predictors (test scores, etc.) to ensure that the most capable students are gaining admission to their institutions. Theoretically, these admission standards are in relation to the rigors of the institution. College should be challenging, but not so challenging that capable students are failing out at high rates. Whether the solution is to raise standards so that unqualified students do not gain admittance, provide better instruction, or a host of other possible solutions, I don't think that accepting high dropout rates is an acceptable option.

  5. #5
    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Lezli Baskerville, president and CEO of the National Association for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education , the umbrella organization for HBCUs and predominantly black institutions, said that “the right type of data gathering or the strategic organizing of currently collected data can assist institutions in better realizing their missions.”
    She said accrediting bodies should take into account the socioeconomic makeup of student bodies as well as missions that prioritize affordability and serving low-income and first-generation students.
    Wow, what a shameless request for exemption from offering a quality education to one's students.
    BS, Info Sys concentration, Charter Oak State College
    MA in Educational Tech, George Washington University
    PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
    More at http://stevefoerster.com

  6. #6
    jhp
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    I disagree with the bolded statement. College have admissions standards and employ college success predictors (test scores, etc.) to ensure that the most capable students are gaining admission to their institutions. Theoretically, these admission standards are in relation to the rigors of the institution. College should be challenging, but not so challenging that capable students are failing out at high rates. Whether the solution is to raise standards so that unqualified students do not gain admittance, provide better instruction, or a host of other possible solutions, I don't think that accepting high dropout rates is an acceptable option.
    I might be too old, but I do remember several exemplary new freshmen, who became drunkards and in general indolent by third quarter of that year.

  7. #7
    Life Long Learning is offline Registered User
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    It's not a $$$ thing. The Oregon Community Colleges ($95 credit) have had rates as low as 8-12%. Oregon is not known for progressive adult education .


    Lane Community College 2.5% in two years and 9.9% over 4-years graduation rate!
    http://collegecompletion.chronicle.c...tor=public_two
    Last edited by Life Long Learning; 10-16-2016 at 05:30 PM.

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  9. #8
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    College have admissions standards and employ college success predictors (test scores, etc.) to ensure that the most capable students are gaining admission to their institutions.
    Open enrollment and specifically online programs that generally subsist on open enrollment, has had a major impact on that approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    I disagree with the bolded statement. College have admissions standards and employ college success predictors (test scores, etc.) to ensure that the most capable students are gaining admission to their institutions. Theoretically, these admission standards are in relation to the rigors of the institution. College should be challenging, but not so challenging that capable students are failing out at high rates. Whether the solution is to raise standards so that unqualified students do not gain admittance, provide better instruction, or a host of other possible solutions, I don't think that accepting high dropout rates is an acceptable option.
    If the failing students were capable they wouldn't be failing students. There are exceptions, but as a whole this is certain.

    Considering the tuition debt crisis, I'd bet the dropout rates have a lot to do with tuition costs more so than academics.

    About failing students, it's like I said in another thread on a similar subject: when graduation rates are high, people complain that the standards are too low. When graduation rates are low, people complain that the standards are too high. Both sides want something in the middle not realizing that such a thing would be a perfect world scenario. This is not a perfect world. Some argue that standards are generally too low aside from the grad rates.

    At the end of the day, neither side will ever be pleased entirely.

  10. #9
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by LearningAddict View Post
    Open enrollment and specifically online programs that generally subsist on open enrollment, has had a major impact on that approach.



    If the failing students were capable they wouldn't be failing students. There are exceptions, but as a whole this is certain.

    Considering the tuition debt crisis, I'd bet the dropout rates have a lot to do with tuition costs more so than academics.

    About failing students, it's like I said in another thread on a similar subject: when graduation rates are high, people complain that the standards are too low. When graduation rates are low, people complain that the standards are too high. Both sides want something in the middle not realizing that such a thing would be a perfect world scenario. This is not a perfect world. Some argue that standards are generally too low aside from the grad rates.

    At the end of the day, neither side will ever be pleased entirely.
    I agree with the last two paragraphs and I think that we see this in microcosms in individual classrooms. Too many A's and too many F's are generally bad news for instructors.

    That being said, in regards to your paragraph, I think the problem is that more lax standards that allow unqualified students in in the first place can be part of the problem. Colleges need to looking more closely at the relationship between student expectations and incoming student profiles to ensure a proper balance is being maintained.

    Unfortunately, with high school grade inflation running rampant, it is increasingly difficult for instructors to make "true" assessments of student qualifications and capabilities.

  11. #10
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    Wow, what a shameless request for exemption from offering a quality education to one's students.
    While I think it's admirable to help people pull themselves up by getting them in to college, once they are in you should also be prepared to give them a level of assistance required to keep them in college. Otherwise it just seems like a set-up for failure.
    American College of Sports Medicine

  12. #11
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    I agree with the last two paragraphs and I think that we see this in microcosms in individual classrooms. Too many A's and too many F's are generally bad news for instructors.

    That being said, in regards to your paragraph, I think the problem is that more lax standards that allow unqualified students in in the first place can be part of the problem. Colleges need to looking more closely at the relationship between student expectations and incoming student profiles to ensure a proper balance is being maintained.

    Unfortunately, with high school grade inflation running rampant, it is increasingly difficult for instructors to make "true" assessments of student qualifications and capabilities.
    Well said.

    One school I earned a degree from has a very well-crafted and rigorous independent study system. It is, however, open enrollment and few of its graduates ever earn a degree, but it has countless diploma program graduates. When you visit its message board and read the messages from the student body, you quickly realize the type of atmosphere the lack of admission standards can create. The students are well-meaning, but many miles far from scholarly.

  13. #12
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by LearningAddict View Post
    Well said.

    One school I earned a degree from has a very well-crafted and rigorous independent study system. It is, however, open enrollment and few of its graduates ever earn a degree, but it has countless diploma program graduates. When you visit its message board and read the messages from the student body, you quickly realize the type of atmosphere the lack of admission standards can create. The students are well-meaning, but many miles far from scholarly.
    Very interesting and definitely a program that seems like it adheres to the "get out what you put in" approach. Does it charge the same amount of tuition as more traditional programs? I think that one of the problems that we're starting to see with free or extremely low cost programs is that without enough "skin in the game", students are more willing to walk away if they lose interest, get busy, etc. Finding that "sweet spot" between expensive enough and too expensive may be the most important advancement!

  14. #13
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomE View Post
    Very interesting and definitely a program that seems like it adheres to the "get out what you put in" approach. Does it charge the same amount of tuition as more traditional programs? I think that one of the problems that we're starting to see with free or extremely low cost programs is that without enough "skin in the game", students are more willing to walk away if they lose interest, get busy, etc. Finding that "sweet spot" between expensive enough and too expensive may be the most important advancement!
    It's definitely much cheaper than a traditional 4-year program and even most 2-year programs. I'd liken the prices to a low-cost community college.

    You make a good point about the downside of the lower cost programs. With the independent study programs especially, it's essentially self-correcting. You bring in hordes of students that wouldn't get admitted anywhere with stronger standards, but only the students who are the most determined and able to prove themselves in the work will make it through to the end.

  15. #14
    TomE is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by LearningAddict View Post
    It's definitely much cheaper than a traditional 4-year program and even most 2-year programs. I'd liken the prices to a low-cost community college.

    You make a good point about the downside of the lower cost programs. With the independent study programs especially, it's essentially self-correcting. You bring in hordes of students that wouldn't get admitted anywhere with stronger standards, but only the students who are the most determined and able to prove themselves in the work will make it through to the end.
    Yes, definitely. One would think that less-qualified students may need that extra attention or guidance in the classroom to achieve successful outcomes, but this approach is pretty much the opposite. Low relative payment and little oversight and...well...I know there are cheap good and services that I have purchased without anything to keep me accountable. Predictably, these things got little use.

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