Professors with diploma mill degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Neuhaus, Feb 20, 2015.

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  1. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Every so often I find a college professor claiming a doctorate from a diploma mill. They are generally professors who had the job before the fake degree. But still, it is irritating.

    There is this part of me that really wants to e-mail blast the entire administration asking why they feel it appropriate to employ someone with a degree from Atlantic International University or Breyer State University.

    But, I'm actually kind of against internet originated shaming. So far, I have kind of just sat on my hands. I look at it from the perspective that the schools should be vetting their faculty. My company doesn't scrutinize accreditation but that's largely because the only people we employ whose accreditation "matters" is our accountants. If they are ineligible to sit for the CPA exam, they can't hold the accountant title here. Other than that, we can be flexible and weigh things like experience, professional certifications etc. Universities aren't in the same position.

    Even if the professor had the job before claiming the bogus degree that tells me that they are qualified for their job but exercise really bad judgment (and/or are incredibly dishonest).

    So I'm just curious what others do with information when they come across it. Let's say you find a high school principal, a college professor or someone else somewhere in the academic world sporting a clearly bogus degree.

    Do you keep it to yourself?
     
  2. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    Depends... If it was something I randomly discovered - like a neighboring town hires a new principal, no. I just don't have brain space to right all the wrongs of the world. Since I'm not a superhero, it would have to be relevant to me or my field in some way. If I was a student at the college with diploma mill professor, yes, I tell. If I was a co-worker....mmmm I'd weigh carefully, that feels like it could come back and bite me in the arse. If it was a colleague in my field, probably not.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    It's worth noting that meddling with someone else's business relationships may leave you open to a tortious interference lawsuit.
     
  4. DxD=D^2

    DxD=D^2 Member

    However, it wouldn't apply to tort law, because the word "wrongfully" is has not been expressly performed. The wrong doing would be on the individual who is portraying as a credential professional and can negatively affect the well-being of those he/she influences.
     
  5. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Working in HR I have seen some unique reactions to unaccredited degrees. At my present company, final authority is left to the hiring manager. Only the VP of HR can override a decision to make an offer, and that is a power seldom used.

    At prior companies, the hiring manager had hiring authority as long as HR OKed the person. In both situations I have encountered individuals who came in for a job and, during the reference check process, it was discovered they had a diploma mill degree (Almeda U is the most common, but I once had an applicant with a degree from Buxton University).

    In both settings, when a hiring manager was presented with this information they invariably shrugged and said "So?" The difference was the in the former companies, HR was able to put the brakes on the hire.

    And Steve, I think that would be a bit of a stretch. There are more than a few cases where the person with the bogus degree ends up facing criminal or civil charges for fraud as a result of using an unaccredited degree. I'm not saying no one would ever try to sue their accuser and argue that they were "wrongly" terminated for deceiving their employer with a worthless (and possibly illegal) degree, but if I did it at work I'm confident my employer would defend me. And if I did it in my personal time, it would likely be in a situation where I was personally affected by it (and therefor willing to absorb the asinine lawsuit).
     
  6. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Try this exercise: do a school search in LinkedIn.com for Breyer State University and Almeda University. You will find (as I just did) 5,293 people publicly using these fake degrees. How many of these bios do you need to read before your discomfort level reaches the point where either 'need' to do something, or to declare that you are not your brother's (or sister's) keeper, and move on.

    Each case is different. One never knows how far the tentacles may lead. The case that my wife wrote so well about in our "Degree Mills" book involved a well respected teacher who bought a fake Master's degree in order to qualify for Principal. The school board said, "No big deal; she's doing a great job." But the lawsuit was brought by the well-qualified person with a legitimate Master's who was passed over for the Principal job.
     
  7. chasisaac

    chasisaac Member

    The one problem I have always had with these arguements and getting mad at people with Almeda University degrees.

    I am always reminded of George Carlin who said think of dumb the average person is . . . half the people are more dumb.

    People want to recognized for what they have done and what better way than a diploma. I think a mill fits right into a person's ego. After all my degree is BA is just as good as your BA.

    The last part with the school board, most people do not know or understand a mill. All a hiring authority wants to see is BA or MA. I am in education I have never been asked about my degree, study, or anything. I have the degree and all is good.

    Dare I mention churches . . . Almeda University that offers M.Div for $500 what does it mean to a church hiring, very little. The candidate has an M.Div. so who cares. Most people do not.
     
  8. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    The sad part is that unless people begin to be outed more often, the mills will keep selling, and the liars will keep buying and posting their fake credentials.

    Problem is, with the number of people using them, it would be a full-time job going after them all. Unless some sort of uniform training for this is implemented into HR curriculum and even continuing education, it's not going to end any time soon.
     
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Whoa now, don't go blaming HR for this. Sure, some HR departments "let" people with diploma mill degrees into the mix, but HR doesn't usually have the final say. The hiring managers have the final say. That can mean an engineering manager, a marketing manager, an IT manager etc. It is a diverse group of individuals who don't really need to be educated on accreditation, per se, but need to spend more time thinking about education rather than just checking the box.

    "Oh, he has an MBA? Check."
     
  10. novadar

    novadar Member

    I would not say "blame" HR but the does the CHRO not have duty to guide proper Human Resource policy and ensure that an organization hires the best people? It seems that this is 100% in the domain of HR... to educate hiring managers and the entire organization. If "HR" wants to be more relevant and not an "irritant" this would be a good place to start. Stepping off my sandbox.
     
  11. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    That's a lovely theory. However, it is much harder to implement in reality than most people assume.

    HR seldom has direct authority to punish violation of an HR policy. In some companies, this is the case. If you hire someone outside of the established hiring procedure, you can be disciplined. In many private employers, HR lacks this authority.

    But let's say HR develops a policy it can enforce. What policy would that be exactly? Degree requirements are written into the individual job descriptions. If we tried to make a blanket policy for the entire company (all job titles) that said:

    "All claimed degrees must be earned from a higher educational institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or their foreign equivalent."

    Great, that should fix it, right? What do I do now if we hire a janitor who, years into his job, claims an associates degree from Breyer State? He doesn't use it to try to get a raise. He doesn't use it to try to get a promotion. He just has it added to his personnel record. Should we fire him? Should we simply refuse to add the degree? What if he claims a degree that is state approved in our state? Might he have cause to bring action against us under these circumstances?

    The alternative would be to write the degree requirement into every single job description (we could also do a combination of the two approaches). That would be both time consuming and still subject to being ignored by the hiring manager. We purposely leave certain educational requirements vague or allow exception from them for candidates who are exceptional. You want to hire a programmer. You have two candidates. One has a degree and some experience. The other has no degree, a decade's worth of directly relevant experience and every Microsoft Developer certification available under the sun. If you write a policy to exclude the applicant with a fake degree, you may inadvertently hobble the hiring manager.

    And you can step off your soapbox but I still take issue with your comment. If HR wants to be more relevant? Seriously? OK, how about you really stick it to us and stop participating in your 401(k), health insurance, dental plan and every other company benefit. Company gym? Sorry, some irrelevant jerk spent hours setting that up, I wouldn't want to burden you with it. Or perhaps you'd like to share what your job is and I can sit here and lob attacks at how you can do your job better (and maybe why your entire department shouldn't even exist).

    "That's HR's job" is a cop out. We're not in kindergarten. If you are an engineer and you need to hire someone who is PE eligible, you should know that person needs an ABET accredited degree. What's more, YOU should know what other requirements that individual needs to meet. I work in HR. If you want advice on obtaining the PHR or SPHR, I'm happy to help. However, I'm hiring IT people, accountants, engineers, welders, janitors, executives, marketing specialists, sales staff, support staff, procurement specialists, logistics specialists and data scientists. Is it really your contention that the respective hiring manager should need an HR person to tell them that degrees purchased for $500 on the internet aren't "real" degrees? Because honestly that doesn't sound "100% the domain of HR" it sounds like a sloppy excuse from a lazy hiring manager.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I've done this a few times. I'm always curious about the rising chutzpah of people who claim these degrees.

    Is it a matter of quantity? I would think it matters where the person works. If I were say, the Provost of Michigan State University and I "earned" my Ph.D. from Almeda and my Masters from Breyer State, would you be a little offended that your alma mater somehow allowed me to slip through their vetting process? I would.

    And honestly, the school board is an authority. But not every authority is going to do the right thing. In that case, I would say the principal used the degree to deceive her way into a new position. Another school board might have not only fired her, but pursued charges since she sought financial reward for her deception as has happened with individuals who fake their credentials.
     
  13. novadar

    novadar Member

    You are free to take issue. By all means. I am surprised you took such an offense to the suggestion of offering "training" so hiring managers know what to look for. I never said anything about setting up a policy. I am a Sales Engineer for a very, very, very large software company. Lob away.
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I never got offended at you suggesting HR do training. I took offense to the fact that you said things like:

    But hey, if you ever decide to become a real engineer, I would support you all the way.*


    *I don't actually mean that, I'm trying to make a point about how passive aggressive jabs at the other person's job and then acting "surprised" that the other person takes offense is a bit tacky.
     
  15. novadar

    novadar Member

    Yeah, there's probably too much passive-aggressive on this board anyway.

    I worked on detail assignment once to the HR group at government agency (post-Military) before I jumped ship to the software industry. I saw way too many HR Specialists who were masters at push back (some held MEP degrees - Master of Extreme PushbacK). I was like WTF why make the line manager's job's harder. So I guess I am a bit jaded. But I do think rooting out the issue of diploma mill usage is an HR-domain type activity. So many "learned" individuals haven't a clue about accreditation, state authorization, or far-flung diploma mills.

    Zingers are officially withdrawn. LOL.
     
  16. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I think HR has a role. I think hiring managers have a role. I don't think there is an easy solution, honestly.

    Let me share two recent stories.

    Recently, my company was hiring for two positions. We were looking for both an HR Benefits person and a Safety Officer.

    The top candidate for the Safety Officer job had a B.S. and M.S. from Columbia Southern University. They have degree programs in Occupational Safety and Health. He was one of the few candidates to actually have degrees in OSH. Everyone else had experience and a degree in an unrelated field. So, having the "right" degree weighed heavily in his favor. Nobody raised an issue with his degree being nationally accredited. Truthfully, I doubt anyone (besides me) noticed. I didn't bring accreditation up. His degree is accredited.

    The top candidate for the benefits job kind of rubbed one of the interviewers the wrong way. So that interviewer began googling the crap out of the individual's resume. The candidate had a B.S. and MBA from American InterContinental University. The perturbed interviewer called me over and said something to the effect:

    "Hey, look at this. I checked out her school because it had a funny name and it looks like they let ANYONE in!"

    From this we might posit that interviewers are a bit less inclined to really dig into a candidate they like. If someone doesn't like the candidate, then the fault-finding begins. (Sort of like if you don't like the President and begin yelling at the top of your lungs that he couldn't possibly have been admitted to Columbia Law on his own merits. Just hypothetically, mind you.)

    Our HR process also doesn't really allow for this sort of scrutiny. We would have to do it to every candidate to be fair. And most of our background/reference checking is outsourced. When I get a background check back on someone with an unaccredited degree the final report almost invariably says "Degree Verified." Right, because Almeda verifies the degree. It's part of the service. The background company should be doing this accreditation vetting.

    To date, I have yet to find a vendor willing to offer this service.

    Also, while accreditation is a personal interest of mine, I am not going to pretend that I know every diploma mill in the world. I rely on these reference/background check firms to do a uniform background/reference check. So if I am going to have a uniform procedure in-house, I need my outside research people to give me the information I need.

    The obvious obstacle to these researchers? Foreign degrees. We can rely on third party evaluators, but all of this adds to the expense of hiring.
     
  17. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    Neuhas - I'm with a company with 5,000+ employees in an audit/compliance-type role, and starting from scratch, we've implemented many of the things discussed on this thread. We have a broad range of positions also, from janitors to PhD's. It takes education, patience, persistence, and somewhat reasonable management.

    >>>But let's say HR develops a policy it can enforce. What policy would that be exactly? Degree requirements are written into the individual job descriptions. If we tried to make a blanket policy for the entire company (all job titles) that said: "All claimed degrees must be earned from a higher educational institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or their foreign equivalent."

    That is almost exactly what our policy says and includes "and will be verified as a condition of employment". Leave off the "foreign equivalent" wording and handle that on a case by case basis and I would also recommend changing "is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education" to "is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by INSERT EMPLOYER NAME".

    This gives you some flexibility with various types of degrees. The most common example we discuss are one-year certificate type programs, or even 1 month certificate programs that border more on training than education and may come from a CPE type provider or Continuing Ed course.

    Don't write it into each job description, too much maintenance. We wrote it into an overall policy and our HR screening procedure and put it clearly on our application form and website.
     
  18. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    >>>Great, that should fix it, right? What do I do now if we hire a janitor who, years into his job, claims an associates degree from Breyer State? He doesn't use it to try to get a raise. He doesn't use it to try to get a promotion. He just has it added to his personnel record. Should we fire him? Should we simply refuse to add the degree? What if he claims a degree that is state approved in our state? Might he have cause to bring action against us under these circumstances?

    We verify education on New Hires and Internal Hires (promotions/transfers).

    If they have a bogus degree in a vacuum, no harm no foul. If they use it to apply for a promotion or internal transfer, they are subject to the same screening as if they were a new hire. The only other time we (HR/Compliance/Management) would get involved is if they were holding themselves out as an expert based on that bogus degree, such as being interviewed by media. Using your janitor example: Groundskeeper Willie - No big deal. Groundskeeper Willie, MFA, PHD - if bogus, that would be a problem.
     
  19. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    >>>"We purposely leave certain educational requirements vague or allow exception from them for candidates who are exceptional. You want to hire a programmer. You have two candidates. One has a degree and some experience. The other has no degree, a decade's worth of directly relevant experience and every Microsoft Developer certification available under the sun. If you write a policy to exclude the applicant with a fake degree, you may inadvertently hobble the hiring manager."

    This sounds like poor job description design. If you want to leave it open for the 2nd candidate you mention, make minimum education requirements: "bachelors degree OR equivalent professional IT certifications such as x, y, z and x years closely related experience". Don't require a degree if you would hire without one.
     
  20. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    >>> "At prior companies, the hiring manager had hiring authority as long as HR OKed the person. In both situations I have encountered individuals who came in for a job and, during the reference check process, it was discovered they had a diploma mill degree (Almeda U is the most common, but I once had an applicant with a degree from Buxton University).

    In both settings, when a hiring manager was presented with this information they invariably shrugged and said "So?" The difference was the in the former companies, HR was able to put the brakes on the hire."

    This one is easy here, but I will give you the tricky one. Say the job requires a Bachelors Degree. Like I said, we require and verify accredited degrees. If an applicant presents with an Almeda degree, they do not have a Bachelors Degree and do not meet the minimum qualifications for the job.

    The tricky one is where that same applicant has a real bachelors and an Almeda MBA. They technically meet the minimum job requirements as we generally only verify the "required" education. The HR Rep may catch it anyway and directly advise the manager as to the risk and concerns, but we may occasionally hire this person based on the manager.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2015

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