Thread: When is an Unaccredited University not a Mill

I had just read a guy's refutations that his PhD was from a diploma mill, he kept insisting that his university was a valid unaccredited university but not a diploma mill. How do we distinguish between the two? I can't even find the university on the Internet and USDOE.

It’s really hard to, the question you have to ask is if its not a mill then why no go for accreditation?

Originally Posted by jackrussell

I had just read a guy's refutations that his PhD was from a diploma mill, he kept insisting that his university was a valid unaccredited university but not a diploma mill. How do we distinguish between the two? ...............

When no significant ammount of effort is required then it is a degree mill.

Originally Posted by Ian Anderson

When no significant ammount of effort is required then it is a degree mill.

But from the outside looking in..... ?

Originally Posted by JBjunior

But from the outside looking in..... ?

That's what I was getting at...Its hard to tell.

Originally Posted by b4cz28

That's what I was getting at...Its hard to tell.

Exactly, you can't exactly send them $2500 and way to see if they send you a diploma or a course load.

Although some will tell you clearly and unambiguously that if you DO send that $2500 then they WILL send you the diploma. That's a big clue.

Bill Dayson's google test is a good indicator. I've also noted that the degree mills often have "instructors" that have their highest degree from that same school (or some other shadowy entity). Some will list no instructors at all. Some will say outright that they're not accredited and others (like Ecole Superiourere Robert de BlahBlahBlah) will try to baffle you with bullshit. Typically the former is considered marginally more benign than the latter. Ask for a list of alumni. Ask to read some of their students doctoral dissertations. If you get evasion then you've found a mill.

With the exception of highly regarded non-accredited institutions, such as the Natiional Test Pilot School and the USDA Graduate School (which only offers courses, not degrees), I do not bother making the distinction between diploma mill and non-diploma mill unaccredited institutions. Think about it this way. Obviously, a school that only requires you to send in a check to receive a PhD is a diploma mill. However what if they "required" some work, like a multiple choice test. What if they wanted a 10 page paper? 20 page? 50 page?

The problem is that their is a huge range of "required" work and study among these non-accredited schools. The real question is whether the work required is equivalent to the minimum work required at an accredited institution. Unless an independent third party evaluated the program we have absolutely no way of knowing. I know someone who has a doctorate from LaSalle University, a known diploma mill. She wrote a dissertation. However, who is to say that that dissertation would meet the minimum standards of an accredited program, and if it did, why not just go to an accredited program in the first place.

What does it matter whether the person did work to get the unaccredited degree if there is no way to determine whether the work was equivalent to work done for an accredited degree? I suppose it might differentiate between folks that are complete frauds/scammers and folks that just have insufficient credentials. However, once you have determined that someone did some work, then what? I certainly wouldn't recognize their degree just for that.

Originally Posted by mcjon77

With the exception of highly regarded non-accredited institutions, such as the Natiional Test Pilot School and the USDA Graduate School (which only offers courses, not degrees), I do not bother making the distinction between diploma mill and non-diploma mill unaccredited institutions. Think about it this way. Obviously, a school that only requires you to send in a check to receive a PhD is a diploma mill. However what if they "required" some work, like a multiple choice test. What if they wanted a 10 page paper? 20 page? 50 page?

The problem is that their is a huge range of "required" work and study among these non-accredited schools. The real question is whether the work required is equivalent to the minimum work required at an accredited institution. Unless an independent third party evaluated the program we have absolutely no way of knowing. I know someone who has a doctorate from LaSalle University, a known diploma mill. She wrote a dissertation. However, who is to say that that dissertation would meet the minimum standards of an accredited program, and if it did, why not just go to an accredited program in the first place.

What does it matter whether the person did work to get the unaccredited degree if there is no way to determine whether the work was equivalent to work done for an accredited degree? I suppose it might differentiate between folks that are complete frauds/scammers and folks that just have insufficient credentials. However, once you have determined that someone did some work, then what? I certainly wouldn't recognize their degree just for that.

I agree. What would give those people who were evaluating the "work" or "dissertation" the qualifications to do so as well. They could very well have no education or minimal education themselves. Blind leading the blind off of a cliff.......

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Originally Posted by mcjon77

With the exception of highly regarded non-accredited institutions, such as the Natiional Test Pilot School and the USDA Graduate School (which only offers courses, not degrees) . .

The USDA Graduate School holds national accreditation from the Council on Occupational Education . The school is soon going to offer associate degrees.

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Originally Posted by jackrussell

I had just read a guy's refutations that his PhD was from a diploma mill, he kept insisting that his university was a valid unaccredited university but not a diploma mill. How do we distinguish between the two? I can't even find the university on the Internet and USDOE.

Find the answer to this question: Does the school in question offer academic rigor? if so, it is likely not a mill. If it is impossible to get information from them on their professors and insight into the rigor of their program, it could be a mill.

My question: Why would you bother with a unaccredited degree in the first place? The only reason I could think of is for the personal enjoyment of learning. An unaccredited degree would be honored by very few employers, so it likely could not be used for a career move. If you choose to go to an unaccredited school, the main criteria would be whether or not it meets your need.

Originally Posted by MichaelOliver

Does the school in question offer academic rigor? if so, it is likely not a mill. If it is impossible to get information from them on their professors and insight into the rigor of their program, it is likely a mill.

My question: Why would you bother with a unaccredited degree in the first place? The only reason I could think of is for the personal enjoyment of learning. An unaccredited degree would be honored by very few employers, so it likely could not be used for a career move. If you choose to go to an unaccredited school, the main criteria would be whether or not it meets your need.

You'd be suprised... Just do a google search to see how many faculty at some colleges/universities hold Ph.D.s from Kennedy-Western University... And I ain't talking about other unaccredited schools, either...

One result actually kicks up a link to George Washington University ... But the person with the degree doesn't seem to be there anymore... :P

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Being a regular user of this forum, I do take the extra efforts to check on the credentials especially those with a long list of titles. Found two PhD this week and both are fakes. One is quite obviously labeled on the Internet. The other is not found on the Internet. I checked that guy on a forum, it appears that forumers are discussing his "university". I think one of his altered ego replied that the university is legit but accreditation is a voluntary process....the usual crap. Trying to find a way to get hold of information relating to that university so as to unmasked him.

Originally Posted by jackrussell

Being a regular user of this forum, I do take the extra efforts to check on the credentials especially those with a long list of titles. Found two PhD this week and both are fakes. One is quite obviously labeled on the Internet. The other is not found on the Internet. I checked that guy on a forum, it appears that forumers are discussing his "university". I think one of his altered ego replied that the university is legit but accreditation is a voluntary process....the usual crap. Trying to find a way to get hold of information relating to that university so as to unmasked him.

Good. I would like to see the info when you do. Start a new thread with what you find.

Originally Posted by mcjon77

With the exception of highly regarded non-accredited institutions, such as the Natiional Test Pilot School ................

The NTPS is ABET accredited - I've worked with engineers and test pilots with degrees or training from there - NTPS probably has some of the most expensive degrees in the world.

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The NTPS is ABET accredited

Technically, ABET accredits degree programs, not institutions. NTPS offers two MS programs, only one of which (the MS in Flight Test Engineering ) is ABET accredited.

The other MS program offered by NTPS (the MS in Flight Test & Evaluation) is not accredited, not by ABET or by anyone else. However, NTPS has a strong reputation in this specialized field, and so it's not an issue.

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