John Bear's evaluation

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by MyrrhMusic, May 31, 2010.

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  1. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    John Bear seems to have his evaluation of some schools wrong. For example he has listed SPICER MEMORIAL COLLEGE located in Pune India, as a Diploma Mill. Spicer is a college recognised by the government of India. And they are affilaited to Pune University.

    John Bear has listed Belford University, Almeda University as legitimate schools.

    IS John okay??

    Myrrh Music
     
  2. Gabe F.

    Gabe F. Active Member

    Your claim + no credible references = No credibility for you.
     
  3. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    John bears listings

    John Bear says in his book Earning degrees through distance learning, and I quote " page 198 The schools listed here are not neccesarily, bad illegal or fake but they are unlikely to be accepted as accredited despite the claims that many of them make...... What does this mean?? here are some list

    Breyer state University

    Canyon College

    Almeda University

    And many other questionable schools. Breyer state University is a 100 percent diploma Mill and so is Almeda University. They have some fake accreditation by some agencies etc. On the contrary Belford University which is diploma Mill is not listed . Strange isn it?. John needs to do his homework right.
    MyrrhMusic
     
  4. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I don't have a copy of the book to confirm what you are quoting really is there, however, even in your snippet, the quote doesn't say anything anywhere near what you say it does.... add that to the fact that this book wasn't written any time recently, and all of your mysteries are easily solved.
     
  5. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    P.S.
    John Bear has done a lot to help people like you and I avoid scams and mills. It pisses me off when people like you try to hurt a man’s good reputation and start trouble. The ways schools operate can change overnight; a school can start out as an honest good endeavor and soon turn into a mill.
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It means that they are unaccredited. A few unaccredited schools might be reasonably good, others might be flaky but nevertheless offer some kind of instruction that somebody might find valuable, and many others are simply scams.

    The whole point about unaccredited schools is that it's very difficult to know what they are. Bear's listing of unaccredited schools is his 'proceed at your own risk' category. He isn't endorsing any of them. He's holding open the possibility that there might be a few programs in there that somebody might think are worthy of further investigation.

    I find it odd that you would attack Bear for leaving open the possibility that non-accredited schools like your own Louisiana Baptist might nevertheless have some value for some students. You should be applauding him.
     
  7. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    It's important to understand how Bears' Guide is set up.

    Any school that John describes as a degree mill is a school that a credible source other than John has described as a degree mill. The reason for this is one of simple liability. John doesn't like to get sued.

    Schools that may well be degree mills, but might be operating just over the line of acceptability in some state with minimal regulation are in the "other schools" chapter of the book, which in the first line of the chapter states (the part the OP conveniently omitted)
    And then there is the "miscellaneous schools" chapter, which includes schools that there isn't enough information to make a determination on, or are otherwise unclassified.

    Anyone with a brain who reads the listings in the "other schools" chapter will pretty quickly realize that many of them are probably diploma mills, and anyone who chooses a school out of that chapter is probably a few fries short of a Happy Meal. John relies on the intelligence of his reader to read between the lines, without saying something that could be actionable.

    As to the specific schools you mentioned,

    Spicer International was identified as a degree mill by the Council of Europe, which John says is
    So if they now have legitimacy, then that will be corrected and updated in the next edition of Bears' Guide (if there is one), but it was correctly reported by the COE at the time of publication.

    As for

    Breyer state University
    Canyon College
    Almeda University

    Those schools in particular, at least at the time of the 15th Edition, had been moving all over the place and would be legal (i.e., conforming with the state or country where they claimed to be that week) for a short time in each domicile.

    The line between "legal" in a state or country with no regulation and "diploma mill" is a fine one, and shady schools thrive in that gray area. But again, anyone with a brain can read between the lines and figure out what the intent is with the placement of a school in any particular chapter of BG.
     
  8. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    Oh so it pisses you of when someone questions John Bear. I didnt attack John Bear his book is quite informative, but there are errors in his evaluation and that is my observation. I) Spicer Memorial College in Pune India is not a mill it is a Goverment recognised College affiliated to University of Pune. I come from that region where this school is Located.

    One more observation: John Bear names Trinity College London as a less than wonderful school. Trinity college London offers diplomas in Music, Speech and drama.

    Trinity college London is an examination board which examines Music and speech worldwiide. It is accredited by QCA in the UK. Also Trinity College is a company owned by the Trinity College of Music. I train several students for Music examinations comducted by TCL right from basic to Advance level music performance. And I hold a diploma from that school in teaching too, So I know what Iam talking. Also I can challenge John on this subject.

    LBU has qualified staff with accredited degrees from Grad schools. And I have seen their Music syllabi it has rigor and substance. Yes LBU also has quite a few proffessors from their own schools. I think they are working to correct that.
     
  9. Lukeness

    Lukeness Member

    The name Trinity is used by numerous legit and fake schools all over the world. There are also mills using other schools names or subtle variations of them.
     
  10. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    Trinity

    In his book he has specifically mentioned Trinity College London, which administers examinations in Music, speech and Drama. This board is located in London UK. John Bear's book is informative and good, it gives valuable advice however, some of his evaluation is innaccurate and so Iam just drawing his attention to it.
     
  11. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I'm happy that you are doing that too, but I think that your first post came off as you were mocking him. Since John does watch this board and does post, maybe you should PM him with this information (in addition to posting it, of course). He has said in a few threads that he hopes that his publisher allows him to make a new addition, so I gather that he is constantly doing more research and would appreciate it if you could point out where more information or consideration can be found. If you catch him where he is wrong before he publishes another book, I am certain that he would be grateful for it (who wants to publish incorrect information, when your own name is in the TITLE of the book? :eek:).

    I haven't looked at his book, mostly because I feel that it must be outdated at this point, but would love to see a new edition if he is able to make it happen. I think that such a book (whether by John Bear himself or by another) is more badly needed now than ever, with the rise in popularity of online education and, in kind, the rise of charlatans roaming the web taking customers away from legitimate schools.
     
  12. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    John bears reply

    I did recieve a letter from John Bear and I clarified my doubts with him. He said he didnt write the 16th edition also he has acknowledged that, LBU is legitimate unnaccredted school, serving the Christian Community.
     
  13. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Please pay attention, Mr. Music. I did not call Spicer a diploma mill. I simply reported that the Council of Europe does. That statement has been in my book since 1978. You are the first to challenge it. If I ever do a new edition, I shall revisit the matter.

    Meanwhile, you might want to take issue with the Wikipedia listing for Spicer, which says, among other unkind things:

    "Spicer Memorial College does not reveal accreditation credentials verified at the state (i.e. Maharashtra level) or federal level. The Spicer Memorial College website does not identify any specific accreditation given to it by the Indian federal or state government. In addition, the American Association for Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers (AACRAO)on its Electronic Database for Global Education (EDGE) could not identify Spicer Memorial College in its listing of Indian autonomous colleges."

    and

    "The science laboratories are not adequate for the amount of tuition. Spicer Memorial Students do not fare well in national level examinations (i.e. IIT JEE)...Spicer Memorial College students are not accustomed to rigorous studies."

    and

    " The ranking of Spicer Memorial College is 8468 out of 9000 universities in stark contrast to the superior ranking of University of Pune"

    Incidentally, are you, perchance, the Myrrh Larsen who is featured on the website "myrrhmusic.com, identified on Facebook as "The official website of Portland-based noisemaker, raconteur, performing & recording artist, troubador and troublemaker Myrrh Larsen? If so . . . I'll be in Portland next week. Perhaps I could buy you a cup of hemlock at Starbucks and you can tell me about Spicer.

    Oh, by the way, I don't rely on Wikipedia for basic info. I rely on the massive Europa World of Learning Eycyclopedia, which has many thousands of pages on just about all the colleges and universities on the planet. Let's see what they say in their 2010 edition about Spicer, in their 90-odd large small-type pages on the huge number of colleges and universities in India. Oops, not listed. You might want to take this up with Europa as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2010
  14. MyrrhMusic

    MyrrhMusic New Member

    Cool down Mr Bear

    Mr Bear
    You seem to have a good sense of humour, Well I checked the 16th edition of Bears Guide and I realise you didnt write the book. So I apologise for the mistake. Having said that the sources you have quoted which says Spicer Memorial College as a Diploma Mill is not accurate. So I once again apologise for making the mistake of quoting you as the source of this information. Having said that Spicer Memorial college is recognised by the government of India, which is affiliated to Pune University. It is Pune University which confers degrees not Spicer. Pune University is recognised by the UGC ie University Grants Commision an accrediting body in India which regulates all universities. Spicer has some autonomous courses such as Occidental Music, Theology etc since it is a college owned by the Seventh-day adventist Church. Religious degrees do not require any government approval or accreditation since Indian Constitution being secular allows any minority religious group to set up colleges and confer any type of degrees. Spicer therefore is a legitimate school. However as per the standard of education and quality of education Iam not aware of that. Most colleges in India do not have high quality education .There are very few colleges and institutes such as IIT and IIM which offer world class education. And for a country of a BILLION population there are too few colleges which only the best can go to. Having said this the standard and ranking may not be good of Spicer but that does not make it a Diploma Mill. So your source from Europe council is wrong. On a final note Iam not the person you asked Iam from India and if you visit my country I will give you Lassi and Rasam to drink which is our speciality,good for health.
     
  15. draa777

    draa777 New Member

    I gradduated from Greenwich Univ. with a Ph.D. in Psychology. I know the controversy over accreditation... am wondering what you reccomend regarding this.
     
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I'm guessing that your unaccredited PhD in Psych is worth virtually nothing (or else you wouldn't have dredged up this old thread). I recommend that you do some homework and then go out and earn a REAL degree.
     
  17. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Dear Mr. or Ms. Draa

    During the year and a half that I was involved with Greenwich full time (1990-91), some students in psychology (and other fields) had their degrees accepted by regionally-accredited schools, or by employers. The key factors were the work done, and who supervised it. For instance, the very well known psychologist Stanley Krippner, long-time Professor at regionally-accredited Saybrook University, and holder of an American Psychological Association award for distinguished contributions to psychology) was an adjunct professor at Greenwich. He did this as an outreach, for capable students who could not attend Saybrook for reasons of money, time, or geography. He maintained, in the letters of reference he wrote for Greenwich students, that he was satisfied they had done the same quality of work with Greenwich as they would have done under his supervision at Saybrook.

    If you did quality work under the supervision of a faculty with good credentials, you might ask that person/those people to help. Another comparable approach Greenwich students (and, of course, others) have used is having their doctoral dissertation evaluated by academics at other schools and/or experts in the field. If they find it of good quality, comparable to work done at their schools, that could be persuasive. I remember a student, during my time, whose passion was the study of the Roman Legions. He arrived with thousands of pages of notes, research, essays he had written. We matched him with a professor (at Northwestern, as I recall) who had published extensively on the Legions, and was hugely impressed by this man's work, overcoming his reluctance to work with an unaccredited school. The resulting dissertation (and book) are well accepted in this field.

    Of course there have been students at Greenwich (and other decent unaccredited schools) whose degrees have not been accepted. In a fairer world, a good dissertation supervised by Krippner would be equally well accepted whether done at Greenwich and Saybrook. But that is not the way of the world. As I have written, a significant percentage of DETC-accredited degrees are not accepted by regionally-accredited schools, based on my 2000 research. (It was about 40% then, I'd guess a lower number now). And of course a lower percentage of well-earned unaccredited degrees were and are accepted. But some are.

    Cordially, John Bear, President of Greenwich from Feb. 2, 1990 to July, 1991

    PS: I hope "gradduated" is a typo.
     
  18. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I hope you keep writing Dr B. You are fascinating and so many interesting stories from the education world (underworld in some cases). You are also a gentleman in dealing with all kinds of accusations and so on. The one I will remember is the grace with which you dealt with being called a liar by ACI (Dr. Scheel) and then eventually produced the letter. I am sure you got an apology and nice fruit basket or something.
     
  19. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Garp: "The one I will remember is the grace with which you dealt with being called a liar by ACI (Dr. Scheel) and then eventually produced the letter. I am sure you got an apology and nice fruit basket or something."

    John: Thank you for this, Garp. I'm sure he's still paging through the Nordstrom or the Archie McPhee catalog, looking for just the right 'something'.
     

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