California Union University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by mighty mouse, Apr 8, 2010.

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  1. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    I still have not been able to raise Cohen University on any hailing frequency. I have found another school with a similar program, but they don't answer their phones, either. California Union University http://www.californiaunionuniversity.com/english/about_cuu/about_school.html
    says that it is state-approved, and the CPEC website confirms this.

    Does anyone have any information as to whether this school is still operation in Fullerton, or did the immigration/visa thing cause them to close?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    It's an unaccredited school where no one answers the phone. Doesn't that tell you enough? Why would you chase them around?
     
  3. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    I doubt anyone would take seriously a school that offers a doctoral degree in martial arts (except perhaps a mugger)
     
  4. Duces Tecum

    Duces Tecum New Member

    Mighty Mouse, aside from saving the day what is the ultimate goal of this quest? Perhaps you've stated it elsewhere around here, but to save me having to go out and hunt it down in other threads; and also to make this thread a bit more self-explanatory for the casual visitor who might happen to stumble upon it, please tell us what, in the end, you hope to accomplish. If you so do, I suspect you'll get all manner of suggestions from others here for far better ways to get it done... none of which, I'll bet, will require your getting involved with good-for-nothing "schools." And trust me, both the "schools" you've mentioned in your thread-starting post are the very definition of "good for nothing."

    And beyond that, the only other thing I'd add is: Ditto what Kizmet wrote.
     
  5. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

  6. emmzee

    emmzee New Member

    From the article ...

    "At the school, students rarely if ever attended class and there were no teachers seen, immigration officials said.

    Oh even staged graduation ceremonies and handed out phony diplomas, authorities said."


    Nope, doesn't sound like a good choice to me. :D
     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My guess is that they're set up to sell degrees to Koreans in South Korea.

    Anyone wanting to give the BPPVE any credit--and that's not me--just has to look at this thing.

    There are some good California-approved schools. But California approval doesn't mean squat anymore.
     
  8. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    Actually, I simply directed a question to anyone who might live in that area and who could tell me if the school was still in operation. As a state-approved school, it has a program that would be of interest to me. As I have posted before, my master's is from the old Clayton in Missouri, so an accredited doctorate would be out of the question, I would be willing to bet. Plus, a legitimate state-approved doctorate would likely serve me fairly well. Going back and doing an accredited master's wouldn't serve me at all, at this point in my life/career. I take it from the responses, that the school is neither legitimate (how did this get by Sacramento?), nor still in operation.

    My thanks to all who responded.
     
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Two potentially faulty premises are presented here. First, that a master's from Clayton would prohibit one from entering a doctoral program. Instead, one could attempt to negotiate one's admission--it's been done. Second, that this "school" has a real academic program in the area you observed. They may not.

    How did it get by Sacramento? I instead would be shocked if it didn't.

    Still in operation? Probably. Try calling from a phone number in Seoul.
     
  10. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    AFAIC you can do whatever you like but I'd recommend that you do some research into what is actually involved in becoming a "state-approved school." It's almost effortless and it signifies virtually nothing. As for having a "legitimate state-approved doctorate," from such a school, the real value approaches zero. The only ones who would assign value simply don't know better. I'm sure that if you tell us your area of interest we can come up with better alternatives. However, if you're just interested in paying the money and getting the diploma in the mail then you're on the right track.
     
  11. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

  12. Duces Tecum

    Duces Tecum New Member

    And I'm guessing that you'd now agree that by hook or by crook, that question's been responded to... no?

    And that, too... no?

    See what Rich correctly wrote. At that level, many things are negotiable.

    See what Kizmet wrote; and also how I responded to your 2005 thread to which you linked us in your most recent post.

    As explained in my today's post in that older thread, getting anything but an accredited masters (or bachelors, or associates, or PhD) is foolhardy... for a variety of reasons.

    You've got it exactly right. And as for how it got by Sacramento (which I sense is an editorial comment, on your part, as much as it is a legitimate question), BPPVE hasn't worked very well for a long time. It's been more like a door lock: Useful, as a practical matter, only to keep out honest people. BPPVE-approved schools which operated with integrity continue to so do. Those which didn't are likely even worse today. BPPVE seemed, sometimes, not to care which was which.

    And that would be the other thread to which you linked us, and to which I just now referred (and in which I just made a posting).

    So, then, your interest is a PhD in music... religious music, it seems.

    And you come to that table with a masters that you fear wouldn't be acceptable to an accredited school.

    Hmm. Well... hmmm... I never thought this would ever happen, or could be possible, but given your circumstances, and that you seem to want your PhD to have credibility in spite of them...

    ...could this actually be a job for GTF and its Doctor of Sacred Music (D.S.M.) credential? Oh, sure, it's unaccredited, yet it dances on the very edge of legitimacy and credibility... and tends to fall down on the credible/legitimate side, in most cases. Oh, of course, it has a checkered past which has been discussed here many times; but it also has many graduates with some pretty impressive positions at some pretty impressive places. Just search these forums on the text string "GTF" and read every single post to get an overall feel for it. (And don't be too intimidated by the zero-tolerance for GTF by such as Steve Levicoff and certain others... who all have valid points, mind you, regarding GTF... but, still, in spite of itself, the institution has some serious supporters and impressive graduates.) Then be sure to seriously read then entirely of GTF's web site -- in fact, request a printed catalog -- before coming to any final conclusions, either way.

    Might that be something like what you're looking for, Mighty Mouse? Could GTF save your day?
     
  13. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    Duces,
    I want to thank you for the suggestion you made about the GTF. I was not up-to-date on what California state-approval really is. I am still living in the CPPVE days, when California approval was looked on as a mini-accreditation.

    My reason for returning to school is this: I am a minister of music, part-time. I have served several churches for almost 25 years now, always part-time. For once, I would like to be considered for a full-time position. I had hopes when I enrolled at Clayton that this would get me some interviews, at least. When I listed Clayton on my resume, I was asked the same thing - 'what about seminary?' I don't live near an SBC seminary (the nearest one being at Wake Forest, NC), and at 50yrs old, I just can't quit either of my jobs and move. This is why I need a distance program. As far as legitimacy or rigor is concerned - I would like both, but (and hope this doesn't make me sound disingenuous) I would sacrifice rigor for a shred of legitimacy, if that is possible. That is why I was considering Louisiana Baptist, until they told me over the phone that they do not offer a doctorate in music. I mistakenly believed that CA approval would give me legitimacy. In SC, where we know very little about CA schools other than football and Golden Gate Seminary, CA approval might just do it. If the school were a real, functioning school where you could phone them and they would actually answer.

    Now GTF. As I said, I am a Southern Baptist in SC, with no likelihood of changing either. While I do appreciate the time and trouble you went to to post a response, a degree from such a school would not be helpful to me listed on my resume. Most Southern Baptists do not like Roman Catholicism. I was told by an Episcopalian priest once that it is because we are so much alike. If you are RC, I apologize for being blunt.

    I have considered another school, Pacific International Theological Seminary, staffed by mostly Southern Baptists. It is RE in CA, and so I can only assume now that it doesn't even meet CA-approved standards. As I posted on another forum, likely I will not go back for a doctorate. My only other interest is getting Microsoft certified in Excel, and I can do that at a local community college.

    So, again, I want to thank you for your suggestion. Sometimes even Mighty Mouse needs saving...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2010
  14. Duces Tecum

    Duces Tecum New Member

    Which, incidentally, just happens to be one of the best schools of its type on the planet... [sarcasm]but, hey... why should that matter?[/sarcasm]

    Well, since rigor is one of the things which tends to make a school credible (in addition to being accredited), that would be a tough nut to crack given that unaccredited would be okay with you. But, in this context, as you've presented it (and especially now that I'm convinced that you don't have some kind of trollish ulterior motive), no, it's not disingenuous. Your candor is appreciated. And I'm sympathetic, too. Getting a proper education for second-career ministry can be very tough.

    It still can. For the longest time, until its recent DETC accreditation, California Southern University (formerly SCUPS) was credible. Oh, sure, it took some (sometimes well-deserved) hits from some around here (just search on the text string "SCUPS" to see what I mean); but, really, by and large, it has always been pretty credible, despite its (until recently) lack of real accreditation.

    And though I won't, because I don't have time, I could come-up with a pretty impressive list, here, of unaccredited, formerly-only-BPPVE-approved (soon to be BPPE-approved) California schools which are very credible, indeed. BPPVE didn't do its job very well, so there are some real losers among its approved schools. But there are also some formerly-BPPVE-approved (soon to be BPPE-approved) schools out there that are as serious as a heart attack about being credible and rigorous and legitimate and respectable.

    Oh, I'll bet California is [in]famous in NC for a whole lot more than just that!

    Don't be so quick to assume that. The word about the need for accreditation as a hedge against diploma and degree mills is getting out... to everyone, everywhere. More and more people are learning that if a given school isn't accredited by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency, then the statistical possibility of it being a mill exponentially rises; and so even if it isn't one, it gets a taint. And in some people's minds, "unaccredited" and "diploma mill" or "degree mill" are all synonymous. The last thing you'd want is to get a gig at a church using your unaccredited DSM degree, and then have someone point out that it's unaccredited and millish. Even if it actually isn't, there you'd be defending yourself. Who wants to be in that position! At least with the GTF DSM (just as an example), you could point at all the impressive people with all the impressive positions who have unaccredited GTF degrees as part of your argument. But, again, why put yourself in the position where you even ever have to make it?

    I'm not RC, but I'm at least a sympathizer. [grin] Still, no offense taken. And I'm puzzled by the "we" in "we are so much alike." Do you mean Episcopalians and Roman Catholics are so much alike? Because Southern Baptists aren't like either of them! So now I'm tripping on "we" in that sentence; help me out, here. And Roman Catholics are liturgically like Episcopalians (Anglicans), but there are some huge theological differeinces... like the RC's salvation through works, just to name one biggie. There are certainly others. But now we digress. Sorry.

    Don't be so sure.

    Or in about a gazillion online (or some other form of distance learning) programs... some accredited, some not... but for that, who cares.


    Hmm. Well, please don't you be offended, now, but as for the SBC's turning-up its nose at a sacred music degree with anything other than bona fide Southern Baptist breeding...

    ...[sarcasm]no wonder Jimmy Carter defected. Though he did it for other reasons, I'll bet if he'd known that a sacred music doctorate from a school with Roman Catholic underpinnings would be treated by his denomination as anathema, he'd have jumped ship a whole lot sooner![/sarcasm]

    [sigh] A person with a doctorate-level degree in sacred music is quite likely going to be sufficiently bright to understand his/her audience; and to adjust musical programming accordingly. I'm as far to the left of the SBC as you can imagine, but I'll bet I could chair an SBC church's Worship and Music Committee (or whatever it's called in SBC churches) and get it right, in the church members' minds, every single time. It simply matters not where the degree is from in circumstance like this. Moreover, I don't know about you, but I'd want my church's musical director to be as fluent in Roman Catholic (and/or Anglican, and/or Lutheran, and/or Presbyterian, and/or... you get the idea) hymnody as in SBC hymnody. It's called being "well rounded" in one's education... which is kinda' the whole point.


    Now, as for Pacific International Theological Seminary (PITS), it is definitely unaccredited. Further, it was, indeed, religiously exempt from BPPVE regulation (when BPPVE existed); and will likely continue to be so once BPPE starts up.

    PITS claims approval by The Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI), which is not a USDE- or CHEA-approved accreditor, but which I have, in my travels determined to be quite credible. And one of the reasons (and by no means anywhere near the top of the list of important ones) is that ACSI only claims to "approve" schools, not accredit them. This, I have long argued, is the only thing (in addition to, perhaps, "certfiying" them) that agencies not approved by USDE and/or CHEA should ever do... leaving the word "accredit" (and all its variations) to describe only what USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditors do). And ACSI seems to understand this... gotta' like that. But, in addition, though its training is too theologically conservative for my tastes, it does a perfectly fine job of certifying Christian school teachers and other professionals. ACSI is, overall, a pretty okay little operation... worth proudly claiming the association of on one's college web site.

    PITS is also fairly clear on its "about us" page that its affiliation with the USDE- and CHEA-approved accreditor ABHE is only that: Affiliation. It makes further clear that it is actively working on going up to the next level with ABHE: Actual accreditation. I also like that... very much, in fact. Some ABHE affiliates use said affiliation to confuse degree seekers on their web sites by mentioning that they're affiliated with ABHE and then simply putting a comma behind ABHE and then adding "an accreditor approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)." These institutions know that most degree seekers don't have a sophisticated understanding of accreditation and are looking for the magic of the word "accreditor" and will most likely miss completely the word "affiliated" and may even make the slip in their minds of adding that all up to mean that the institution is, indeed, accredited. PITS doesn't do that. That's nice.

    Plus, if you enroll at PITS, and it gets accredited before you finish, then your entire degree from PITS will still be considered accredited, even if you obtained most of it before PITS became accredited.

    Also, I only see a Master of Church Music, not a doctorate. But then again, it seems you're now saying that you won't be going back and pursuing such a degree after all? I'm confused.

    But, anyway, bottom line: PITS seems legit... maybe a good choice for you if it suits your purposes; and as long as you understand what its being unaccredited might mean for you in the future. Worth your consideration, it seems to me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  15. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    Years ago when I was dating an Episcopalian girl, she dragged me to something called 'Discovery Weekend' where non-Episcopalians could learn about the PE church. During a session, the priest made a comment about Baptists and Catholics being similarly dogmatic. I raised my had and asked, "then why do they hate each other so much?" His response was that they "are so much alike."

    Really, I am the one confused, and confusion is frustrating, and frustration is exhausting. I am trying to decide if going back to school at 50 is going to accomplish what I thought the Clayton degree was going to accomplish 23 years ago.

    I sent an email to PITS, and after several days of no response, I called. I spoke to the registrar who told me the D Min and the ThD could both be done with a concentration in Sacred Music and at a distance. The consideration now is this: an unaccredited degree, maybe achieving applicant or candidate status by the time I finish, and a D Min program at $140/hr x 60 hrs, or a ThD at $160/hr x 72 hrs. Do I raid the 401(k) or not? And in that, lies my confusion. I have no intention of buying myself a cheap piece of paper with Gothic lettering on it. But if I do go back, how long until those rights and privileges kick in?
     
  16. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    What programs are you looking for?
     
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I think that one of the South African universities offers a degree like that. Maybe UNISA. Maybe SATS. I tried to check but for some reason their websites won't load. Right now it's bedtime. Too late to worry about such things as flu-like symptoms in a website.
     
  18. Duces Tecum

    Duces Tecum New Member

    Well, I disagree.

    I feel your pain... and frustration... and exhaustion.

    Having read what you just wrote, even though PITS looks at least superficially okay as unaccredited seminaries go, I simply could not advise you to spend what is clearly very precious money on an unaccredited degree.

    Also, regarding that credibility, I might have spoken too soon. Now that I've finally downloaded the PDF of its catalog, I can see that though PITS has apparently removed it from its web site, it is, on page 5 of said catalog, claiming bogus accreditation, to wit:

    Pacific International Theological Seminary has registered by the state & federal revenues service 501c3 as non-profit organization. The school has been approved by BPPVE as Religious Exemption Institutions and is a Christian institution, in Southern California, that is accredited with ACCTS (Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools) and now is seeking accreditation status with ABHE (The Association for Biblical Higher Education).​
    Well, of course, ACCTS is is not a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditor. And pretty much everyone who values accreditation and abhors diploma and degree mills -- and, in this case, accreditation mills, too -- agrees that claiming bogus accreditation is way worse than not having accreditation at all. So, right there, just with that, I'm able to take back my words about having a sense that PITS is probably credible despite its being unaccredited. If it's going to claim bogus accreditation, then it's flat-out fraudulent; and so I hereby withdraw my suggestion that it may be right for you.

    But it gets worse...

    Note how it worded its BPPVE-related language: "The school has been approved by BPPVE as Religious Exemption Institutions..." Well, that's just bunk. If a school is exempt from state regulation, then it's even exempt from the state's agreeing so. Exempt is exempt. BPPVE never "approved" any exempt schools for anything. It simply ignored schools which the law clearly stated were exempt. That's how pretty much all states do it. At most, PITS might have sent a letter to BPPVE and asked if it agreed that PITS should be exempt, and BPPVE may have sent a letter back confirming that it was, but in that case that would be nothing more than a state agency clarifying something as part of simply answering a question... which is a far cray from "approval."

    The troubling thing about this is that that's how many unaccredited religious schools and seminaries do things... and nearly all who do are either millish or flat-out, full-blown mills.

    So, then, I want to hereby do a one-eighty on what I earlier wrote. Based solely on these two things (bogus accreditation, and slimy and misleading BPPVE religious exemption language), I hereby no longer believe that PITS is credible. It is not... at least not if it's going to pull stunts like that. And shame on it for being just one more good-for-nothing religious school that clearly just doesn't get it.


    Just FYI: Do you know what is one of the most credible unaccredited seminaries on the entire planet? Columbia Evangelical Seminary. And talk about affordable: Only its doctoral-level degrees break a hundred bucks per credit hour. Unfortunately, none of its doctoral degrees are in music. But visiting its web site and, specifically, reading its accreditation page, might be a good exercise for you... and anyone else who's a little confused about accreditation and religious schools. Rick Walston, who runs the seminary, has long been a foe of diploma and degree mills; and he's none too happy about the fact that so many fraudsters use state religious exemptions in law to operate with impunity. He's writeen several books, and has the respect of even the most rabid anti-diploma mill activist.


    Continued in next posting...
     
  19. Duces Tecum

    Duces Tecum New Member

    ...continued from previous posting:


    So, then... back to your problem...

    Before you go much further, just to make sure you've dotted your i's and cross your t's, have you inquired of absolutely every school on both the ABHE and TRACS web sites? I mean every single one.

    Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS)
    http://www.tracs.org/member.htm (accredited schools & candidates)

    The Association for Biblical Higher Education (ABHE)
    http://directory.abhe.org/default.aspx?status=Member (accredited schools)
    http://directory.abhe.org/default.aspx?status=Applicant (applicants)
    The reason to check-out ABHE applicants, too (or, in the case of TRACS, its "candidates"), is that, as earlier alluded to, if you begin a degree at an applicant or candidate school, and then it becomes accredited while you're still working on the degree, then the degree is considered accredited because the school was accredited at the time you finished. What matters with the "when" of accreditation is the completion date of the degree, not its inception date. So if you're fairly convinced that any given ABHE/TRACS applicant/candidate will earn its accreditation before you can complete the degree, then you should not hesitate to enroll there even before it's accredited.

    Either ABHE or TRACS is probably a longshot for a doctorate in sacred or church music via distance learning... but it's worth checking-out.


    Oh, yeah... and I probably should have proffered this Google search earlier in this conversation. Sorry.


    [sigh] So, then... the pain of yours to which I earlier alluded, which I wrote that I feel, is because I know a lot about second career ministry; but also because I know a lot about ageism. At 50, you're entering the beginning (and, actually, in certain fields, like high tech, you're about 15 years into it) of a period in life when you'll not be considered for jobs just because of your age. It's illegal, but it happens all the time.

    Since second-career ministry is pretty common, it doesn't happen in that quite as much as in other fields... but, believe me, it's there, too. That, I realize, doesn't help much... you might even be wishing right about now that I hadn't pointed it out. But it's better, I think, to have eyes wide open about these sorts of things.

    The upside, though, is that ministers of pretty much all types are in short supply in many denominations; and one can even search on the word "church" in places like Craigslist in almost any city and find lots of church music director positions. So, of all the second-career ministry jobs in which you could be interested, it seems like maybe this one has possibilities.

    The answer, though, to your question about how to realize a sense of having recouped your investment in a DSM, or a DTh in Music, etc., is a hard one. But I'm not sure that's the way to look at it, in any case. If ever an occupational/career area called for the proverbial "leap of faith," prima facie, it's this one.

    One of the nice things about the discernment process which ordained clergy are forced to endure -- and in which you, too, should be engaging -- is that it helps to separate the practical from the spiritual among one's concerns. You're 50 years old. You didn't come-up with this notion last week. If you're like most second-career ministers, this has been nagging at you for years; and that's spiritual, not practical... the very nature of "call."

    We are reminded in James that faith without works is dead; but how to discern between those works which are merely a part of a living faith and faithful living, and those which are a proper pursuit of Chrisitan vocation... well... that's no small thing.

    "I do not know who -- or what -- put the question. I don't know when it was put. I don't even remember answering. But at some moment I did answer 'yes' to someone -- or something -- and from that hour I was certain that existence is meaningful and that, therefore, my life, in self-surrender, had a goal."
    - Dag Hammarskjold, Secretary-General of the United Nations, 1953-1961


    Micah 6:8 calls on us all to simply "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with [our] God." Colossians 3:23 certainly invites all Christians to think of any task as work done in the Lord's service; and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 and 1 Corinthians 1:26 drive home the point that each Christian is called, simply, to be a servant of God in all of life. Amidst the seeming commonness and mundanity of all that, it is easy to worry, also, about such as one's 401(k) and/or educational investment payback.

    However, beyond that common calling of all Christians, at the point where our work best meets the legitimate needs of God's world, vocation begins. The discernment process helps us to separate out from the many voices calling upon us that which is the whisper of God... the almost imperceptible breath of the Holy Spirit across the hairs on the backs of our necks, urging us to that which is both what we need to do, and what the world most needs done. The place where God calls us is the place where our deep gladness and the world's hunger meet.

    You are at the place in your journey through the discernment wilderness where you have hit the wall of success motivation which stifles our desire for faithfulness, raises the denial of our gifts, and breeds an unwillingness to trust God and a temptation to ignore our calling. When you say you are confused, and frustrated, and exhausted; and wonder about your 401(k), you are Sarah, who laughed at the seeming impossibility of God's promise in Genesis 18:9-15; or Isaiah, who was overwhelmed by his own sense of unworthiness in Isaiah 6:5. When you wonder about the payback, you are like the rich man who is admonished to "go, sell what you own ... then come, follow me" in Mark 10:17-22. At that moment, best is heard the promise of God as found in Isaiah 41:8-10: "Do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be afraid, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you..."

    As you further discern your call and response thereto through thoughtful and prayerful consideration, and if the work of that call really is at the place where your deep gladness and the world's hunger meet, then you will sense God's presence and power, and will be able to claim God's call and say, as in Isaiah 6:8, "Here am I; send me."

    And then you will not worry about 401(k)'s or paybacks.

    At that point, all that will remain is avoiding the embarrassment, later, of being challenged for your having gotten a degree in preparation for the fulfillment of your call which is anything short of beyond reproach. At that point, the shred of legitimacy for which you once contemplated sacrificing rigor will, in retrospect, seem ludicrous. At that point your will be ever mindful of that integrity means doing the right thing even when no one's watching.

    Among my struggles with unaccredited religious schools which play fast and loose with both impression and truth is how it so deeply dishonors the tenets of the precious very faith they claim to the point that they become as the false prophets as in Jeremiah 28:1-16 or 1 John 4:1. They sully the good name of Christianity, and make a mockery of its very teachings.

    Among my struggles with those of their students who would settle for that -- who would trade their shred of legitimacy for rigor -- is that they do the same.

    Do not be attracted to their empty promises "but test everything; [and] hold fast to what is good" as in 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

    Recognize what you're going though as simply a step in the process of your necessarily difficult discernment. Until you do, for as long as it feels to you merely a pointless struggle, with all the confusion, frustration and exhaustion you've described which attends it, I will keep you, and it, in my prayers.

    Good luck, and Peace.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  20. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    This may be way off but have you looked at NationsU? They applied for accreditation through DETC, 100% online, and only $100 per year. That is worth the risk even if hey do not get accreditied. They offer a Master of Religious Studies and Master of Divinity.
     

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