UNION INTERNATIONALE DES INGENIEURS PROFESSIONNELS (International Union of Profession

Anyone knows this entity?
Very suspicious

 

How...............

In the world do you guys find these obscure things?

 

It appears to be a "certification mill". The title that it confers, the "Ing.P.Eur", is probably intended to be similar to the legitimate title of "Eur.Ing." issued by FEANI. However, "certification mills" are generally legal; anyone can establish a private society and issue titles and certificates to members of that society.

The society refers to its members as "Professional Engineers". This usage would be illegal in the US or Canada, where the "Professional Engineer" title is restricted to those with state or provincial engineering licenses.

The site has links to a number of other "professional bodies". Some are legit, others may be national-level "certification mills".

 

Re: How...............

Simple,

A person with a bunch of letters after his name posted his opinion on discussion channel of the UK IET.

UK IEE and IIE merged in to what is today IET.

I was curios of what the letters after the persons name mean:

http://www.theiet.org/Forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=174&threadid=4140&enterthread=y

 

The UK Society of Professional Engineers looks bogus too. The title of "Professional Engineer" is legally protected in the US ("PE") and Canada ("PEng"); however, it is not protected in the UK, where the equivalent title is "Chartered Engineer" ("CEng").

Apparently it is rather easy to qualify as a "PEng (UK)". All you need is a science or engineering diploma, plus unspecified "training or experience", plus 75 pounds. Perhaps they aren't too picky about the accreditation of the diploma or the type of experience. It is much more difficult to obtain the legitimate titles of PE (US), PEng (Canada), or CEng (UK).

The UK SPE claims to have reciprocal arrangements with the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) in the US. NSPE is a legitimate organization, but I could find no evidence that they are aware of this claimed arrangement.

NSPE does not confer the PE title in the US; it represents engineers who have been awarded (or who are pursuing) the PE title from state licensing boards. NSPE will admit anyone who has an ABET engineering degree, or the foreign equivalent, or an EIT certificate. I don't see where they would give any preferential treatment to a UK SPE member.

 

I tend to agree with you, maybe they are legal entity because association is not university and they don't award widely recognized qualifications.

I will say one thing that in UK Diploma can be foundation degree or Honors degree, I have a friend with Diploma in Engineering that is level 5 award - Honors - or US Bachelors degree equivalent.

Also NSPE USA has Licensed Member or Member category so maybe Member category is acceptable with a diploma BS in Engineering.

But in general I got the same feeling as you that it appears resume enhancement thing.

And whether they are a qualification mill wile it appears to be I simply would like to know more, what is the standard how they screen if at all their applicants is it send us credit card payment and resume thing or more.

In general I would deal with institutions and societies in UK that have Royal Charter.

Even the new IET got better, they do not award MIET and TMIET
as IEE used to just for payment.
Today they require special application form, Resume and two sponsors that can validate persons resume and employment education history etc.

So Post nominals will have a little more value in the future, they learned from IEE mistakes in the past and members simply complained about dumbing down the membership.

But IET is very respectfull, royal chasrterd and UK EC recognized
on a level of ABET - accrediting body and engineering institution.

UK SPE is of unknown standard and seems easy - substandard thing.

 

One interesting claim on their web site:

Societe Nationale des Ingenieurs Professionnels de France (IPF)

The national Council of the engineers and the scientists of France


Services with the members

Certification of professional engineer
Associative activities of the IPF
Employment-careers: regional initiatives
Review: IP Engineer Professionnel
Writer in chief: Pierre Sitko

Others
Management committee SNIPF Certification C.D.C.
National commission of Certification C.N.C.
Friendly commission of Solidarity C.A.D.S.

 

The "UK Society of Professional Engineers" claims relationships with the "Societe Nationale des Ingenieurs Professionnels de France (SNIPF)" and the "Bundersverband der Berufsingenieure Deutschlands (BDI)"

My guess is that both organizations are credential mills marketing to French and German engineers respectively, just as the UKSPE markets to UK engineers.

SNIPF is probably supposed to sound like the legitimate CNISF ("Conseil National des Ingénieurs et des Scientifiques de France").

BDI is probably supposed to sound like the legimate VDI ("Verein Deutscher Ingenieure").

So there may be a whole alternate universe of bogus engineering certifications out there. Not only can you get a worthless UK engineering certificate from UKSPE -- you can also get a worthless French engineering certificate from SNIPF, or a worthless German engineering certificate from BDI. If you want to transcend national boundaries, you can even get an engineering certificate that is worthless throughout the European Union from UIDIP.

 

This is funny and unbeleavble

How about World Wide Health Organization for WHO.

Lets see now Engineering Consorium UK for EC UK to issue Certified Engineer - CEng.

International Engineer - IEng

English Technician - EngTech

By the way id EUR ETA also a mill?

European Higher Engineering and Technical Professionals Association

http://www.eureta.org/html/startframe.htm

Title

An engineer registered with EurEta is called a

EurEta Registered Engineer

and has the right to use the title

Ing. EurEta

I'm lost everything seems bogus to me now.

 

A link to the REAL Franche Ingineering Council.

http://www.cnisf.org/

The SNIPF is member of CNISF

http://www.cnisf.org/

So its like the unrecognized credential evaluators have membership with AARCO, they are members of CINIF.

L'activité des associations membres du CNISF
Le CNISF ouvre un espace aux Associations membres disposant d'un site Internet

Pour faire connaître à l'ensemble des ingénieurs et scientifiques certaines de leurs activités (contactez le webmaster)
Pour établir un lien avec leur site

Activités des associations

SOCIETE FRANCAISE DE PHYSIQUE :
Les 8èmes Entretiens Physique - Industrie : Veuillez la consulter à la page : http://sfp.in2p3.fr/expo/


Sites des associations


Ecole Association Adresse du site
CESI AICESI http://www.aicesi.net
CESTI ASSOCIATION SUP'MECA http://www.supmeca.com
— SFT http://www.asso.fr
— SIA http://www.sia.fr
— SNIPF http://www.snipf.org

-------------

CalDog thanks for the info.
They got me with the French thing.

 

SPE UK

The process apears to be not as easy.

The application form required proposers and secondary.

It appears not a Certification mill but private company - independent of ECUK.


Registerable Qualifications

Candidates for election, whether from the United Kingdom, or from Overseas, must aggregate a total of 18 points from Section 2(A&B) & 3(AB&C) as set out on pages 3 & 4.

In addition to membership of the SPE, the European Community & Trade Relations Division of the Department of Trade & Industry (DTI), of the British Government, have indicated to the Society, that those Members whose qualifications and experience meet the requirements of Article 3(b) of the EEC Directive on the Recognition of Professional Qualifications (89/48/EEC), can have these elements assessed in accordance with the procedures laid down in the Directive, this information having also been conveyed by the DTI to the National Coordinators of Directive 89/48/EEC in every country of the European Economic Community.

Article 3(b) of Directive 89/48/EEC requires that Applicants must “show that the holder has successfully completed a post-secondary course of at least 3 years duration, or of an equivalent duration part-time at a University or Establishment of Higher Education or another establishment of similar level of a Member state, and, where appropriate, that he/she has successfully completed the professional training required in addition to the post-secondary course”.


F. Requirements for Admission to Membership

Full Admission to membership gives Members the right to describe themselves as Professional Engineers, and to use the designations “P.Eng” or “P.Eng(UK)”.,

This sheet sets out the criteria that are adopted in considering applicants for election to the Society. Candidates are asked to self assess themselves on the basis of the points system, and return this sheet together with the membership application form.

MEMBERSHIP ACCEPTANCE

In order to be accepted for registration by The Society all applicants must aggregate a total of 18 points from sections 2(A&B) & 3(A,B&C) as set out below and on page 4.

1) Entry Method

The candidates is required to aggregate a total of 18 points from the schedule listed below, of which not more than 12 points may be from any one section.

Documentation will be required certifying the requirements of Sections 2A & 2B whilst references or other forms of verification will be required for Section 3.

Applicants Name………………………………………………………………………………………………..

Address………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

2) Academic Qualifications (minimum 8 points – maximum 12 points)

A BASIC QUALIFICATIONS POINTS Applicants to complete Assessor to complete
i Master of Engineering 12
ii Honours Degree in Engineering (2nd Class Minimum) 10
iii First Degree or Diploma in Engineering or approved Institute of Higher Education (including Open University) 8
iv Higher National Certificate or Diploma prior to 1968 8
v Direct Examinations of other Institutions, Societies & Associations as accredited by the appropriate State Body. 8
vi First Degree in engineering-related subjects eg mathematics, physics, computer science 6
vii BTEC or SCOTEC Higher National Diploma or GNQ/SNVQ Advanced Level 6
viii First Degree of Open University to include full credits in approved engineering or engineering-related subjects 5 to 8
ix BTEC or SCOTEC Higher National Certificate (engineering 5 pts)(building 4 pts)(Post 1968) 5/4
TOTALS


B SUPPLEMENTARY QUALIFICATIONS

(NB Qualifications included in Section 2A cannot be offered as supplementary qualifications) Applicants to complete Assessor to complete
I Approved Post Graduate Course in Engineering or Engineering related subjects (ie. Management, Finance, Geology) 2-6
ii Each Engineering Subject as an Endorsement above the final level of an Approved Degree or Higher National Diploma or Higher National Certificate prior to 1968 2
iii Each Engineering subject as an Endorsement above the final level of an Approved Degree or BTEC/SCOTEC Higher National Diploma prior to 1968. 2
iv Approved Diploma/Certificate in Engineering related subjects eg management, mathematics, physics, chemistry, geology, etc. 2
v Each Open University approved Engineering or Engineering-related subject, non-foundation with full credit. 2
TOTALS



3) Training and Experience (minimum 8 points – maximum 12 points)

A TRAINING (minimum 1 point – maximum 12 points)
I For each full year of structured, supervised Training 1
ii For each full year of other Practical Training (ie supervised junior position) 0.5
B EXPERIENCE
i For each year in approved Engineering Employment, excluding Employment allowed under 3A above. 1
C PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
(MINIMUM 4 POINTS – MAXIMUM 8 POINTS)
i For each year, subject to a minimum of 4 years of employment or independent business in a professional engineering capacity, defined as having responsibilities in addition to the technical sphere, eg management, supervisory, commercial, or definitive decision making in an engineering speciality 1
ii For Continuing Professional Development (CPD) (The point will be awarded when 30 days of appropriate CPD can be claimed) 1
TOTALS
GRAND TOTAL OF SECTIONS 2(A&B), 3(A,B&C)

NB. Where points are graduated, the number awarded will be at the sole discretion of the Membership Elections Committee as will the total number of points awarded to the applicant.


4) Remarks
(This section to be completed by the ASSESSORS)

G. Membership of, and/or Close Liaison with International and Other Organisations

One of the main aims of the Society is to establish close liaison with other like minded bodies whether in the United Kingdom, the EEC or Internationally and to promote the concept of the “Professional Engineer”

This is an on-going process and may take the form of a “Twinning Agreement”, or a more informal arrangement, but one that always involves exchanges of information and the ability of members of each organisation to apply for membership of the other.

Information on Reciprocal Membership Arrangements with other Professional Bodies can be found in the Society’s publication “The Professional Engineer”.

I have contacted BC and other UK Governmet offices for additional info.

 

Re: SPE UK

It's theoretically possible that UKSPE is a well-intentioned private organization, with meaningful standards for its PEng(UK) certification. But even if this is the case, their PEng(UK) certification may still have little or no recognition or value in industry or government.

The PEng(UK) certification seems to be competing with the ECUK's CEng and IEng certifications. The ECUK titles enjoy wide acceptance, lots of prestige, and UK government recognition. But as far as I can tell, the PEng(UK) certification has none of these qualities. It therefore seems much less desirable.

So why is there any need for it? There are no answers at the UKSPE website, or the ECUK website for that matter. In the absence of any other data, my guess (and it's just a guess) would be that the primary purpose of the PEng(UK) certification is to provide an impressive-sounding "vanity" title for those that cannot qualify for a more-desirable ECUK title.

If this guess is correct, then the PEng(UK) program would still be perfectly legal -- anyone can set up a private society and issue titles to members. However, the value of such "vanity" certifications to the engineering community or the general public may be questioned.

 

UK SPE very kindly provided this info - a part of a member guide they sent to my friend.

As a Licensed Member of US NSPE I made official inquiry and will inform readers if there is a receptors agreement or is it a misinformation.

Regards,

Learner

 

About the ILO

As long as it isn't an umbrella for fraud I like it actually I like this freedom a lot.

Learner

 

OK. I withdraw my suggestion that UKSPE was a possible “certification mill.” I think it may be a well-intentioned organization that is trying (for reasons unknown to me) to establish the PEng(UK) certification as an alternative to the more widely-known, prestigious, and government-recognized CEng and IEng certifications issued by ECUK member institutions. However, I still question the value of the PEng(UK) certification; the ECUK certifications seem much more desirable.

I was also too hasty about dismissing SNIPF in France. They appear to be a legitimate organization, and belong to CNISF, the main French engineering body. I don’t know what value their IPF certifications have in France.

However, I remain skeptical about the BDI in Germany (and their B.Ing certification), the UIDIP in Europe (and their Ing.P.Eur certification), the South African Society of Professional Engineers (which apparently issues the P.Eng.(Int) certification through a subsidiary, the International Society of Professional Engineers), and the World Engineers Board (which apparently issues the Pr.Eng. certification). All of these organizations have similar, shoddy websites, and WHOIS searches indicate that they are all registered to the “Consultants for Institutes and Societies” in South Africa.

The websites of the South Africa-based engineering institutions do not inspire much confidence. Even the UKSPE suggests that UIDIP has had trouble staying afloat and maintaining membership records:

In summary, these “alternative” engineering institutions may not be certification mills, but most (with the possible exception of SNIPF in France) don’t appear to be very well funded or widely recognized. As a result, their “alternative” certifications may have little or no practical value in industry or government. Much more prestigious and widely recognized “mainstream” alternatives are available, such as the CEng certification in the UK or the EurIng certification in the European Union.

Finally, it should be noted that advertisement of these “alternative” Professional Engineer certifications in the USA, Canada, or South Africa could pose significant legal issues, since the title of “Professional Engineer” is protected by licensing laws in these jurisdictions. The World Engineers Board’s Pr.Eng. title is of particular concern, because Pr.Eng. is also the standard abbreviation for a legitimate engineering license in South Africa (as issued under government authorization by the Engineering Council of South Africa). Since the "unofficial" Pr.Eng. website is registered in South Africa, any similarity to the "official" South African Pr.Eng. title is probably not coincidental.

 

For example, see the Texas Board's "Policy Advisory Opinion" on the use of the "Professional Engineer" title. If a Texas resident is not licensed as a PE in Texas, but stills want to use the title of "Professional Engineer" based on licensure in another state, then the following format and disclaimer are legally required:

The existing Texas rules only address "Professional Engineer" titles as conferred by other state licensing boards, which are clearly legitimate. It's possible that the Texas Board could have a more restrictive attitude towards "Professional Engineer" titles as conferred by private, non-governmental bodies such as UKSPE or UIDIP.

 

Thanks for the informed posts.

I think the advise to readers is good.

The alternative bodies do raze questions, the other day on the board IET a person was asking whats the defense between EURETA and FEANI and UIDIP etc.
Specially UIDIP providing document that is a license.

I think in 69 when SPE UK started there was very deferent situation than today.

The IEE - Went from Electrical Engineers focused to all inclusive Engineering and Technology.

I think they can have now Mechanical Engineers join and maybe in the future the IMechE - The Institution of Mechanical Engineers may join the IET etc.

I do find interesting that NSPE USA Affiliated with SPE UK.
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Interesting read, notting new but informative and the "ALTERNATIVES" not mention at all.

How does the Canadaian
P.Eng. stack up?

http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/DI...PENGabroad.pdf

 

I think you meant to post this link.

In the US, Canadian CEAB-accredited engineering degrees are generally regarded as equivalent to US ABET-accredited engineering degrees, and the Canadian PEng title is generally regarded as equivalent to the US PE title.

The main difference is that Canadian provincial boards typically do not require technical exams for the PEng certification, while US state boards typically do. Canadians seeking licensure in the US are usually required to take both the FE and PE exams -- just like Americans -- even if they are already licensed as a PEng in Canada.

However, some US states apparently will waive the initial FE exam for PEngs from Canada; Canadian engineering grads reportedly have an extremely high pass rate on this exam. NCEES is currently studying this issue (see page 6 here), and may recommend that all state boards adopt FE exam waivers for PEngs in the future. However, NCEES recommendations, while influential, have no legal authority; it could take years for state boards to actually change their policies, even if NCEES did make an official recommendation of this kind.

 

New Royal Charter and bylaws of the IET - licensed UK EC ingineering institution.

What I like is that MIET has a meaning and its not just a membership category for a fee, it is according to the new laws awarded to people on the level of Professional Engineer.

Also Registered Engineer is used for EC UK registration of CEng, IEng, EngTech.

http://www.theiet.org/media/aboutus/ietbyelaws2006.pdf