definitions for school codes used on the ODA

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Lerner, Dec 15, 2005.

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  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    ODA new definitions for school codes used on the ODA list of unacceptable degree suppliers


    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

    What are the opinions about the new classifications.

    For example BSU now is classified as - S
    KWU is also - S

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2005
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Overall, an improvement over lumping them all into the same category ... but I think the "F" category is a slap in the face of sovereignty of nations. Not that this has ever bothered Oregon State before.

    "As long as your comfortable holding a degree from [insert country here] -- a country whose system Oregon considers...."

    If I ever start a country of my own (hey, you never know), I'll be sure to refuse to trade with the official Center of the Academic World.
     
  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    On the same note about the F - Foreign

    I notice that ODA is using the UNESCO publication - registry
    of recognized foreign universities.

    I think at one time there were claims that some degree mills
    are listed there and it should be removed from the GAAP list.

    Just an observation.

    Learner
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, if the ODA can just go ahead and pass a failing "F" when it deems fit -- I don't think the issue you bring up will get in the way of progress, do you?
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The ODA website has always been very informative and accurate. The additional information that they now provide follows this same great tradition.

    I also note that another entity sometimes discussed here, Knightsbridge University, gets a D grade. Which in this context is worse than an F grade.
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    "F" code is for institutions, not countries

    This is an inaccurate and unfair characterization of the Oregon "F" code, as it implies that Oregon ODA "blacklists" entire countries. In fact, the "F" code is rarely used (I counted ony 6 "F" schools among the 308 currently listed) and it is applied only to specific institutions, not to entire nations.

    For example, some Swiss cantonal schools get the "F" designation. But it is simply untrue that ODA would automatically classify the University of Geneva in the same manner. Similarly, some California-licensed schools get the "S" designation, but it would be unfair to imply that ODA would automatically do the same for Stanford.

    The "F" code and "S" code both apply to schools that appear to operate legally, but which are nonetheless academically suspect. The difference is simply that "S" applies to state-licensed schools, whereas "F" applies to foreign-licensed schools. If "S" is a reasonable category, then "F" is reasonable as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2005
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    someone in personal email to me asked if these are the codes one needs to have on their resume if they are applying for a job in Oregon.

    I replied to the person to ask ODA directly and also will ask here.

    I understand that some schools graduates have to mark their degree in resume as U - unaccredited.

    Is the new code require a person to write F or S on their resume ?

    Alan?

    Learner
     
  8. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I read this on another site, as a comment on similar tread.

    I never looked at this this way but I think maybe there is something to it, I understand why degree mills would want to attack ODA.

    I also know that ODA has a fair process in place to evaluate schools from other states that follow the process. I also support
    AC in what he does.

    from another site critique about ODA.

    So I bring this here not to make ODA look bad but for pure discusion.

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2005
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Why in the world do you think that?

    Oregon is interested in restricting the use of false and misleading educational credentials within the borders of Oregon.

    The 'F' category refers to those higher education institutions that do have legal authorization to grant degrees in their foreign jurisdiction, but which don't appear to possess the equivalent of accreditation.

    I don't understand how this category is supposed to be a "slap in the face of soverignty of nations". Foreign countries with unreliable higher education standards are free to authorize any schools and degrees that they like for domestic purposes. Oregon has absolutely no jurisdiction over that.

    But if for some incomprehensible reason Oregon was obligated to recognize degrees from any legal source anywhere in the world, then those jurisdictions would in effect be legislating educational standards for Oregon purposes. And that would seem to be a violation of Oregon's soverignty.
     
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The official Oregon "disclaimer" reads as follows:

    "(Name of school) does not have accreditation recognized by the United States Department of Education and has not been approved by the Office of Degree Authorization."

    You are required to use this disclaimer if your degree is from a "nonstandard" school, which is "a degree provider that has legal authority to issue degrees valid in its authorizing jurisdiction, but which does not meet the requirements to be a standard school." Typically this would be a legally-operating, but unaccredited, school.

    Unfortunately, ODA does not indicate how their "school codes" relate to the disclaimer. My interpretation would be that "F" and "S" schools are "nonstandard". Degrees from such schools would be legal for use in Oregon if the disclaimer is attached.

    Oregon does not allow "diploma mill" degrees under any circumstances. So I would assume that "D" and "U" degrees would be illegal for use in Oregon, with or without a disclaimer.

    These are only my assumptions and interpretations, and they could be wrong. For a more definitive answer, contact ODA.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I invoked my license to hyperbole for effect. ;)

    That said, as far as I know, if someone from the Sovereign Nation of Exwaized were to move to Vancouver, and he held a degree from a legal university, he could put on his business card, "Joe Bloggs, PhD" without disclaimers -- no matter the country or perceived rigor. He may not be allowed to practice in a controlled profession (very likely he wouldn't) based on that credential alone -- but he could represent himself as a doctorate holder. It would be (at least in private enterprise) up to the other party, seeing that card, to decide whether or not that doctorate was sufficient cause to trust Bloggs.

    As I say -- this is not to say that Bloggs would be allowed to be an Engineer, a Medical Doctor, or any other controlled profession based on that credential -- but that he would have the right to represent himself as a doctorate holder.

    Now, in the case of Oregon -- even though certain universities outside of Oregon (and indeed, outside the USA) might have legal standing -- Oregon has decided that the holder may not represent even holding those degrees (even in the context of private enterprise) within its borders, and thus the ODA appears to be competent to criminalize foreign nationals who may happen to be within their borders, even though those people have broken no law. Which essentially means that Oregon has interpreted the laws and standards of foreign sovereign states.

    I agree that Oregon, as a State, has a right to do such a thing. I agree that Oregon, as a State, has an obligation to protect its citizens from fraud and abuse. And yes, Oregon even has the right to criminalize that which is legal in other sovereign nations. However, that said, there is more to it than what Oregon (or degree holders from Exwaized) hold as rights.

    That list is often used in the following context:

    "Do you realize that your degree is illegal in Oregon?"

    Even when those people are not even in Oregon! As I have said before, that would be akin to my saying to a man whose wife wore make up out of the house, and went about without her head covered: "Do you realize that is illegal in [insert country here]?"

    And thus, Oregon has become the de facto ad hoc International "Standard". Not by its own doing -- but by the miracle that is the Internet.

    Now, the disclosure (which needn't be disclosed to most -- since most know my doctorate is from the old American Coastline University) is that I hold a doctorate from a "D" list institution, and thus would not be permitted mention of that degree within Oregon's borders. However, given that the Board of Regents said that my degree is legal and valid given the time it was conferred -- I have to ask whether or not I could (in Oregon's borders) argue for disclaimer status, with adequate documentation of the meaning and value of said conferral. I doubt that I could convince the ODA to grant me permission -- but the question has arisen in my mind as to whether this would be the case.

    That is, I wonder how the law deals with schools that have changed their standards and practices. Does the ODA allow for such cases? I don't know. I haven't had time to interpret the letter and spirit of the Oregon statutes in this regard.

    On the matter of sovereignty -- I have a question that is related in spirit, but not exactly in the same field. In some countries, it is legal for first cousins to marry. In some countries, it is not. Laws differ as to the closeness of relations permitted. If legally married cousins arrive in a jurisdiction where cousins are not permitted to marry -- are those people allowed to represent themselves while in that jurisdiction as being legally married, or would that be a case where sovereignty of nations is not respected? I'm not trying to stir the pot with this question (although I admit it does seem a bit loaded) -- I'd genuinely like to know the answer to this from a legal perspective -- as I am not a lawyer and don't play one on television.
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    If your degree was issued legally by another state or foreign country, then you have, in theory, the right to advertise it in Oregon. You just have to include a disclaimer if the degree is unaccredited, or lacks the foreign equivalent of US accreditation. You can tell the truth about a legal unaccredited degree -- but you have to tell the whole truth. In theory, Oregon law only criminalizes those who hold illegally-issued degrees, and who therefore have broken the laws of their home jurisdictions.

    Now in practice, it is not always a simple or straightforward matter to determine if a degree was issued "legally," due to differences and changes in legal systems and policies in different jurisdictions. So certainly it is possible to question whether the ODA has always made the correct determinations. They aren't perfect.

    And by miracle that is the Free Market. In the Free Market, there is a significant demand (in both the public and private sectors) for information about questionable academic degrees. The Free Market has determined that Oregon ODA is the most credible, least expensive, and preferred supplier of such information. Is the Free Market wrong?

    If ACU was state-licensed at one time, then I would agree that degrees issued during that time should qualify for the "S" code, rather than the "D" code. It seems possible that you could convince ODA of this point, but since ODA is reportedly understaffed and underfunded, I suspect that it would require a significant investment in money (to fund ODA staff time) and effort (to obtain relevant documentation) on your part, which admittedly may not be worth the trouble. I would agree that this is unfortunate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2005
  13. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Polygamous marriages are perfectly legal in many African and Middle Eastern countries. But if a man with multiple wives were to immigrate to (say) the US or Canada, it seems rather unlikely that all of his marriages would be granted legal recognition.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Interpretation of other sovereign nations within a local context is horribly complicated, isn't it?

    Now, let's say, that two cousins married in jurisdiction A, and then both move to jurisdiction B (where such is not legal). Let's assume, under the laws of B, they are not "married" at all. Both parties marry others in jurisdiction B. Under the laws of A -- they are both bigamists. Under the laws of B, they are not.

    It's not too far fetched. In a country where two men or two women can marry -- either party could move to another jurisdiction where such marriages are not legal -- and marry the opposite sex. They'd be breaking the laws of their home country, but not the laws of their new jurisdiction.

    OK -- I am not going to take that any further -- it's just rather fascinating as an intellectual exercise.

    Back to the ODA then. Company XYZ has an Oregon branch, for which Degree Holder X is an employee. XYZ has a national office that states in its policies -- which apply to all branches, that no employee shall in his application for employment withhold mention of any academic credential. X, having applied within Oregon's boundaries, cannot legally include his degree from institution ABC, since it is a "D" classification by ODA standards.

    During audit for promotion, X is called out of state -- to the national office for an interview regarding that promotion, and X, when asked, states, "I hold a degree from ABC."

    "But it wasn't included on your application -- which is cause for dismissal."

    "I could not include it on my application."

    "But you must."

    "I applied at the Oregon office. I cannot refer to it in a professional context within Oregon's boundaries."

    "But you must."

    "But I must not."

    Does the company have a legal ground to terminate X solely based upon their company policy about disclosure of academic degrees? (Let's assume that they have no problems at the national office with said institution -- their only problem concerns the exclusion of that information from the employee record.)

    Where does full faith and credit come into this particular scenario?

    Sign me sincerely baffled.
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    To me, the way out of the hypothetical delemma is to accept that a diploma mill is not an institution of higher learning. Therefore, one need not list the diploma mill since it is not a real degree.
     
  16. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The scenario is implausibly contrived. It's true that employees routinely get into trouble over bogus degrees -- just search the archives here for examples -- but the problem comes when they advertise those degrees as legitimate. I challenge you to find a real-world instance where an employee was penalized for failing to advertise a phony degree.

    In any case, the hypothetical employee in this situation has done nothing wrong, according to the policies of both Oregon ODA and his employer. The reality is that the same piece of paper may represent an "academic credential" in some jurisdictions, yet not qualify as such in others.

    So the answer to the question "But it wasn't included on your application -- which is cause for dismissal" is:

    "The application, which was submitted in Oregon, asked about my degrees. In Oregon, I have no degree, because my certificate from Diploma Mill U. is not recognized as such, and so my Oregon application was completely truthful and correct. If I were transferred to some other jurisdiction, then my certificate from Diploma Mill U. might acquire legal recognition. In that event I would of course notify the company that I had obtained a degree."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2005
  17. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Oregon religious degree mills?

    All of these schools, except for "Beloved Community Seminary" are currently classified as "Degree Mills" by ODA. Based on a quick Google search (and I suggest that Lerner might try doing one himself next time), there is little evidence that these schools are currently active in Oregon.

    Success Seminary: no contact info in Google

    Washington School of Theology: no contact info in Google

    Communion of Saints Seminary: turns up in Google, but on lists of schools in the State of Washington

    University of New Castle: has website with a Portland, OR address and phone number. But the phone number is currently attached to a medical systems company (punch it back in to Google).

    University of the Holy Land: claims to be recognized by the government of Israel

    The only one of the listed institutions that actually seems to be issuing degrees from Oregon is Beloved Community Seminary, which apparently offers "religious Masters of Divinity" degrees. If they are unaccredited, and have not sought a religious exemption, then this would seem to be illegal under Oregon law. Possibly Oregon does not view this as a pressing enforcement concern, since New Age divinity degrees are not usually regarded as highly marketable credentials.
     
  18. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I actually did search and had no good results so i was thinking that more time needed.

    As far as one man operation I look at the accomplishment of one man operation because until it was pointed to me I was under the impression the Dr AC lead a group of people but if he is alone
    than more power to him because he is doing very good job for one guy and the site I think is better than ever.

    Learner
     
  19. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    No, not really. The bottom line is that credentials (such as licenses or degrees) issued in one jurisdiction do not have guaranteed acceptance in other jurisdictions, unless there is a mutual reciprocity agreement.

    This is obviously true for professional licenses -- no one assumes that a license to practice medicine, law or engineering in State A is equally valid in State B or Country C. It is also true for hunting and fishing licenses. It is also true for marriage licenses -- polygamous or same-sex marriage licenses may be issued in some jurisdictions, but will not be accepted in others.

    People often assume that state driver's licenses are universally valid, but even this is not true. In practice, different states normally recognize each other's driver's licenses, but under some circumstances a valid driver's license from State A will be considered invalid in State B. For example, if the minimum driving age in State A is 16, then a legally licensed 15-year-old from State B cannot use his license there.

    It's true that academic degrees commonly do "travel" from state to state. But why are they different? Because of the success of regional and national accreditation, which (by definition) crosses state lines, and which is respected as valid in all states. In some cases (e.g. Washington Accord engineering degrees), accreditation will even allow your degree to "travel" internationally.

    If you want your degree to cross jurisdictional lines, then get recognized accreditation that transcends such lines. You can certainly choose to opt out of such accreditation if you like. But then don't complain if you find that your degree doesn't "travel" very well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2005
  20. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Oregon religious degree mills?

    A year or two ago there was a very interesting Degreeinfo thread on this one. Unfortunately, without the search-function, it's going to be hard to find it.

    http://www.uhl.ac/

    As I recall, it's run by a couple, Stephen and Claire Pfann. One webpage said something about it being run out of an apartment in Israel.

    But... If you Google 'University of the Holy Land', the results are actually kind of impressive. Stephen Pfann is a real scholar with real credentials. He's cited a lot, he lectures regularly at Hebrew University in Jerusalem as well as at prestige universities abroad, and reputable scholars travel to study with him.

    My take on him is that he's a high-powered independent scholar who decided to create his own institutinal affiliation. His UHL offers summer study abroad programs at arcaeological digs in Israel, as well as several masters degrees in Biblical archaeology specializations such as intertestamental Judaism or pilgrimage studies.

    http://www.uhl.ac/graduate.html

    Regarding UHL's legal status, I'm kind of clueless about Israeli education law. But my understanding is that Israeli universities are under the control of the education ministry. But Israel also has a religious affairs ministry whose jurisdiction includes schools of religion belonging to the various religious communities. There's a whole group of religion schools in Israel, some of them extremely prestigious, that don't appear on the usual lists of Israeli universities. So my layman's impression is that Israel has a spacious religious exemption and that's where UHL lives.

    All in all, I kind of like University of the Holy Land. I don't know how much occupational mileage their degrees have, but UHL might be a Pfann-tastic study opportunity for people who don't really need the degree for job purposes.
     

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