Help on defining a Diploma or Degree Mill?

I am interested in hearing various viewpoints and definitions for what one considers a diploma or degree mill. This is still fairly new to me and with the recent media on an airing I viewed last night, it appears to be vague in terms of defining such a mill outfit.

Is it a safety and lack of investigation or credentials of students applying? IS it a lack of State, national or regional accreditation?

Your viewpoints and suggestions are much appreciated.

 

These seem like questions you might have asked before you enrolled at Breyer State.

But to answer you, the criteria are really rather simple. Is it regionally accredited? Did John Bear own it? Did Rich Douglas teach there or take classes there?

If the answer to any of the above is yes then it is not a mill and it is a good choice. If the answer is no then it is a mill and you are a mill shill if you say otherwise.

This is the official party line of this website, so get used to it. Hope this helps!

 

to most a Diploma/Degree mill is a school that you send money to for a degree that you did not earn. There are also the sites that sell "Novelty" diploma's and transcripts of real schools. These folks say its for novelty purposes, but their faked transcripts and degree's have shown up in RA schools.

There are some schools like Breyer state, or say Kennedy Western that have state approval, but they have it in states where there is little to noover sight, and for the most part degree's from those schools are worthless.

As for clambake, well, he/she is most likely s troll or a shill... but since I don't know clambake personally its just conjecture.

 

Is no party line, is just truth, comrade.

 

Re: Re: Help on defining a Diploma or Degree Mill?

clambake2000,

Your post has been reported by several to the moderators. I have just reviewed your four posts (to date) and they're all fairly similar to this... and you were warned by another moderator in another thread.

You're clearly espousing the familiar line/arguments of DegreeInfo critics in the Crabby Forum and on AED and other such places. You're probably someone who's been banned from DegreeInfo in the past, here now under a new username. My gut instinct is to ban you now, but I won't... quite yet (though I'm worried one of the other moderators will before I can finish typing this post).

You know what you're doing here; it's all quite obviosly intended to be irksome and disruptive. If you keep it up, you can't stay, simple as that. If you stay on topic, debate legitimate points in good faith, avoid personal attacks, don't mischaracterize what is or is not the "party line" of this web site, etc., and generally do not violate the TOS, you'll have no problems here. So far you're getting off to a rough start... but I'm certain you know that, and that it's intentional.

You will ultimately decide if you get banned. In the meantime, until you do, knock it off! This is your second warning. There won't be a third.

 

Re: Re: Help on defining a Diploma or Degree Mill?

You made an error. If a school is not regionally accredited, it doesn't make it a mill. Nationally accredited schools are not mills. Neither are most state approved and/or licensed schools.

 

Re: Re: Re: Help on defining a Diploma or Degree Mill?

[sigh] Seems clambake2000 decided. While I was writing the above warning, he was taunting a moderator who gave him a perfectly appropriate, low-key, polite-but-firm warning in another thread; which elicted an abusive response from clambake2000; which elicited this post from me there.

• Total elapsed time from first post (12-07-2005 10:13 PM PST), to last (12-08-2005 12:09 PM PST): Just under 14 hours.
  
• Total elapsed time from first warning (12-08-2005 11:22 AM PST), to banning (12-08-2005 12:15 PM PST): Less than an hour.
  
• Total elapsed time from the post that got him banned (12-08-2005 12:09 PM PST), to the actual banning (12-08-2005 12:15 PM PST): Less than six minutes.

DegreeInfo: Five moderators, no waiting.

When will they learn?

 

To me it's a business institution that grants degrees without the legal authority to do so. However, even if a school may not be a mill, it may be so substandard when it comes to its educational requirements or have licenses that are so weak, that their degrees are every bit as useless as if they came from the worse diploma mill. Breyer State University and Kennedy-Western are perfect examples of substandard schools.

 

There is no standard definition of the terms "degree mill" or "diploma mill". So these terms are actually not very useful. Reasonable people can and do disagree as to whether or not a given school is a "mill".

Suppose a school had the following characteristics:

- No meaningful accreditation
- No governmental authority to operate
- Provided diplomas/degrees for cash, no questions asked
- Degrees are universally regarded as worthless

Most everybody would agree that such a school would qualify as a "mill".

But suppose a school has some, but not all, of these characteristics (as in common in practice). Then it becomes more difficult to draw the line.

For example, Breyer State clearly has governmental authority to operate. According to some people (e.g. Oregon Office of Degree Authorization, or miguelstefan above) it is therefore not a diploma mill, on that basis alone. That's one opinion.

On the other hand, Breyer State has no meaningful accreditation, its academic standards are unclear, and at least some of its degrees are worthless in some professional situations (it is unlikely, for example, that state licensing boards would accept its accounting, nursing, or medical degrees). So Breyer State does have certain "diploma mill" characteristics, and some people would call it a diploma mill on that basis. That's another opinion.

 

I'm concerned about my program now. I have worked so very hard on my classes and feel rather disalarmed at the amount of negative feedback on Breyer State.

 

Whew! Thankgod. So maybe back2cali's not a millist after all.

What, back2cali... you thought all those references to it being a mill were just idle opinion? Are you forgetting which of the various distance learning fora you're visiting? This isn't "Degreeinfomation DL" or alt.education.distance or any of the other fora where inhabitants there will try to misguide you for sport or profit. This is the one place on the entire web where you'll get the straight skinny... and where, if someone calls your school a mill, trust me, it's a mill.

If you're seriously ready to hear what you don't want to hear, and act on what I believe will bring you great disappointment in both Breyer State and the choice you made to enroll there, this place can ultimately steer you right. If so, welcome to your new home on the web for distance learning guidance. You will not be misled here.

Breyer State is a diploma mill, plain and simple. If you seriously don't know that, then all I can say is, "Where have you been?" If you do know that (as some have emailed me privately that they believe you probably do), then you're just a millist... and with the post to which I'm now responding, a troll.

Let's hope it's neither, and that you're seriously alarmed and in need of some serious help to get out of your current mess.

If you want help, then start by telling us what are your other degrees, and what you're trying to accomplish now, and, believe me, you'll get some help... and I mean good help that will put you into an accredited program instead of a diploma mill sham.

 

Something that is frequently neglected here on the discussion forums is that there are some other very good resources located right here on the degreeinfo website. I am refering to the articles that are available to all by scrolling to the very top of the page and clicking on the link entitled, surprisingly enough, "Articles." I would especially like to point readers to three articles:

1) Diploma Mills: Fraud in Higher Education
by Christopher Bahur
2) Warning Signs of "Less than Wonderful" Schools
by Chip White
3) How to Evaluate Distane Learning Schools
by Kristin Hirst

If lurkers and members would actually read these articles (and the others that are available) then there would be far, far, fewer basic questions asked within the various forums.
Thanks.
Jack

 

OK. Now we're getting somewhere.

The point isn't really woulda coulda shoulda. The point is "what now?"

Is Breyer hopeless? Yes. No way to salvage it. Put it on your resumé and wreck your life. It's that simple.

So now what?

In the first place, what degrees do you now have, and from what schools? This will give you--and us--a baseline from which to work.

Second, you say that you have worked hard in your Breyer programme. I believe you. The problem is that there's no agreed-upon definition of hard work in doctoral-level classes. So let's make a working definition for you. If you can give us a sample of what was asked of you for an average course, we can do that.

Here goes:

Without quoting it directly, what does the syllabus for your course say?

What are the titles and authors of the textbook(s)? This will enable posters who are well-familiar with graduate business administration courses to assess quality. (Me, I know zip about graduate business programmes, but I do know how to figure out where you stand in your current not-nice situation.) How much were you expected to read per unit?

What were the tests like: multiple choice, essays, praxis-based? Open book or closed book? Proctored? Timed? How were they graded? Who graded them?

What were the papers and projects like which you were required to complete? How long? How many per course? What was grading like? Just a letter, or comments, too?

How did you handle the workload for each course? How did you arrange you study and coursework schedule? Was it easy to keep up with the work?

OK.

Once you have answered these questions, this will give an idea (admittedly, a secondhand one, since we don't know your full range of skills and haven't read your papers) of what sort of level you are actually working on in terms of graduate business education. Our informed-in-that-area posters can then suggest, I hope, programmes and schools that will suit you.

So much for the future. Now for the present.

It's a bitter pill to realise that you have spent money and effort on courses from a school that has no real usefulness to you unless you lie about it (not a good idea). You aren't the first and sadly you won't be the last. Resist the temptation to say to yourself that having spent this much money/time/effort you might as well keep going. Do not do that! Drop the dead donkey!

The exercise above is intended to help you figure out what you're actually capable of doing in a REAL DBA programme. The challenge now is to find one which you can handle both academically and financially.

If you have actually learned something in your Breyer stuff, you can use that knowledge for a head start in real courses at a real school. Who knows? You might even be able to haul the gory evidence in to someone's office and get exempted from an intro course or two. No guarantee, obviously, but that is likelier than getting actual transfer credit (almost certainly kiss THAT baby goodbye).

At this point I bid you adieu. Work through the questions above privately. Share what you feel comfortable sharing. You might then want to search this site for other posts and threads about worthwhile DBA programmes and schools. You might also wish to start a new thread of your own announcing your wants. At that point, if it helps, you could ask the moderators (it's OK with me) to move this post of mine to your new thread if that will help you organise your thoughts and questions.

Best wishes to you.

Janko the Mad Priest

 

I understand your views and how things may appear being that you all are very familiar with all of these schools. I just feel so lost now and especially like I have been cheated or frauded if this is the true reality of Breyer State.

I do not know where i should go with this now or what i can do. Should I inform my mentor/professor or contact Breyer's admin. and talk to them as well. Could I transfer the three DBA courses I took to another school? I do not know what to do frankly.

I received my BS at Auburn back in 78 and a MS in 1980. I understand that they are regionally accredited as I found out today. Not too familiar with the accreditation fully as education has changed over the years.

I still have found the Breyer State program to be challenging and am disappointed that it is being classified as a degree mill as it makes me feel as though all of my work on these classes could be given the same credit to one who has done no coursework. Could this truly be the case?

Thank you for offering to assist in my delimma. Could I possibly take legal action of necessary?

 

Our posts crossed while winging their way through cyberspace. It's clear from your brand new post that you are no millist! GOOD!!! Now get to work, and best of luck to you.

 

Don't you mean "alarmed"?

 

back2cali,

I applaud you in not getting defensive about Breyer State University. The posters in this thread [except clambake2000] are truly trying to help you get back on track.

If you decide to start looking at other universities for a doctorate, please check the university’s accreditation using this site. If the university is in the U.S. and is not listed on this site, treat it as unaccredited and stay away.

http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/Search.asp

Keep in mind that DETC does not accredit doctoral programs at this time so you may want to limit your selection of doctoral programs to RA schools.

 

You are correct. I feel alarmed at what I am hearing. I feel completely like a fool. I should have reviewed more information on this forum as the other forum, degreeboard, is not there anymore and did not share the wealth of info i am finding here.

I do not know where to start other than to at least quit before i spend any further time in the Breyer State program.

I sure hope that this doesnt happen to others, but I am sure it will unfortunately.

I dont know what to do....I am mad as hell at the situation I am in and yet depression is creeping upon me. I do not feel so good.

 

Transfer of unaccredited classes at this level is not likely (as in impossible). Breyer State has two addresses, one in Birmingham. Take a look at the mayor's bio. I doubt that a 'Bama PhD (and a B'Ham JD) would take kindly to the sullying of his city. A phone call might net you some relief if you were truly duped. As would a phone call to the Atty General's office. Depending on what your BS, MS is in you might find that there are several available programs better suited to your end goal.

A search on the forum will get many of the available DL DBA programs.

If you can provide some particulars on price range, either credit hour or overall, whether nominal residencies are doable, and/or out of country travel, and a specific concentration I would bet that you will receive some good replies.

best of luck,

Kevin

 

Hi Back2cali.

I am just a little curious about something. Back in July 2005 you posted you were entering the DBA with SCUPS. That you had compared NCU, SCUPS and a few others. You had other posts that would lead one to believe you are pretty knowlegable about accreditation, state approved and unaccredited schools.

Why didn't you stick with SCUPS or NCU?

If I recollect, you also had some posts about state approved schools were all diploma mills. I may be in error with my recollections, my apologies if I am in error.