Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Lerner, Sep 7, 2005.

Loading...
  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    http://www.universitas21.com/members/

    Universitas 21 is an international network of leading research-intensive universities. Its purpose is to facilitate collaboration and cooperation between the member universities and to create entrepreneurial opportunities for them on a scale that none of them would be able to achieve operating independently or through traditional bilateral alliances.

    Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21?

    From the ODA list of illegal schools: http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

    Universitas 21 Channel Islands, UK Not a degree-granting entity.


    Invalid degrees in Oregon
    Degrees from all of these suppliers are invalid for use in state or licensed employment in Oregon and the use of such degrees can result in criminal prosecution or civil penalties depending on the circumstances of the use. In addition, it is illegal to use such degrees or credentials for any purpose unless the user discloses in writing to all persons to whom the degrees is presented that the supplier is unaccredited and unapproved by ODA.

    Foreign Degree Suppliers
    The degree suppliers listed below that are not in the U.S. do not meet the statutory requirements in ORS 348.609 for foreign degree use in public or licensed employment in Oregon.

    unquote

    Universitas 21 is not a degree-awarding body that is correct.
    Can it be stated that its a degree supplier - of degrees from its members?

    Could it be said that ODA outhouse isn't a degree-awarding body. The only reason entities are on that list is because they are deemed illegal in Oregon.

    Or is there a diploma mill that calls itself Universitas 21?

    Alan your statement is corect about awarding body but I think they are a suplier, they create and market their member programs.

    Respectfully,

    Learner
     
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    If you mean "modify," then no. Or, if it turns out that I missed something and that it should modify the writeup after all, then so be it. I've made mistakes before, and will certainly make them again. That's not really my biggest concern at the moment in any case. Rather, I'd now like to ask you a question...

    Should you be held accountable around here for thoughtless, anti-ODA/Contreras, fightin'-words-style remarks like:
    • Originally posted by Lerner:
      Could it be said that ODA outhouse isn't a degree-awarding body. The only reason entities are on that list is because they are deemed illegal in Oregon.
    followed by the disingenuousness of a closing wherein its author has the temerity to incoporate the word "respectfully"? If you believe that the ODA has misstated something on its web site, why do you present the possibility in such confrontational, us-against-them sort of terms? If you're really one of us, as you keep saying you are, why do you pose your issues, questions, commentary, etc., using the same sort of derogatory language and tone that is typically employed over on AED, or in the Crabby Forum and elsewhere, by those who are professed enemies of the ODA and all for which it stands?

    You keep telling us that you're on the right side. I, for one, want to believe you more than you'll probably ever really know. If it's true that you're on the right side, are you... I mean... were you... were you hoping that posts like this would just go unnoticed or something? If so, now that I've pointed-out the problem (on the off chance that you didn't already know it), can you blame us for feeling insulted by your words? Or are you just so disconnected from the English language's subtleties that you simply don't grasp how your words come across?

    Or -- and I hope against hope that this is not the case -- if it's true that you really have an excellent command of the English language; and that your allegedly-Russian-tainted, broken English is just an act, as has many times been suggested around here, then might you be using your feigned ignorance of this language's subtleties as a means of getting away with being more bluntly critical than you know others around here would normally allow you to be with such impunity?

    [sigh]

    I just don't know what to do with you, Lerner. Sometimes you make posts that clearly indicate that you get it; posts that, honestly, have made me smile and want to PM you an "atta' boy"; and then you turn around and make posts that reveal you to be -- or at least suggest that you might be -- little more than a mean-spirited troll come here to just piss everyone off.

    Certainly the evidence of the latter is far more abundant, both here and elsewhere. But godasmywitness, I want to believe better of you. I want to believe you're who you say you are and that we just misunderstand you. And I want you to take me up on my offer to have some private discussions that will, by their end, cause me to want to come back here and publicly state that you're okay after all... and that might even result in our coming out of it as friends.

    But I just don't know. I just... don't... know.

    [shakes head in disappointment]
     
  3. George Brown

    George Brown Active Member

    Wow, now that is an interesting one. Universitas 21 has never held itself out to be a degree granting body. I understand it has degree granting authority from the MOE Singapore, however the degrees are jointly badged and conferred under each individual university's degree granting capacity. I think this entry should be adjusted and/ or removed. Universitas 21 is merely the marketing/business portal in order to promote the programs from a range of top tier universtities.

    Cheers,

    George

    PS I personally thought the creation of their own QA body was a little too Jones International, but it may serve a purpose.
     
  4. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Except, on this page, where it says, and I quote, "Universitas 21 Global is an online university..."

    This contradicts your very first sentence, above.

    But we just established that somewhere, somehow, someone who doesn't know as much about it as someone like you, for example, could be misled or confused... you know... what with both you and/or it saying it's either a university or has degree-granting authority of some kind, somewhare.

    Alan, by putting it on the ODA web site, was eliminating all doubt. What he wrote there, that it's "not a degree-granting entity" (or at least isn't one that Oregon's willing to recognize) is truthful and accurate... no?

    Maybe the concern is that it doesn't really tell the story in a way that makes it more clear to the reader precisely what is the situation. With that, I would agree. But I don't know if it's the ODA's job to spruce-up its declarations to the point of being marketing-like. That said, it's also not ODA's job to state something in a way that could inadvertently hurt someone... the potential for which, I'm guessing is what's got everyone all up in a swivet.

    In my opinion, the statement on the ODA web site is, at the very least, accurate. Whether it should say more or have a footnote, I dunno. I'd need to think about that for a while.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21

    Gregg I copied post by Dr. Marianus in another site.
    I did some editing to create conversation and it wasn't in any way atack on ODA, more a question.

    If they make a mistake they will be viewed unjust, so to me Universitas 21 apears to be legitimate supplier - and the list sates the supliers so maybe Dr Alan can modify and add a line or two.

    Learner
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Universitas 21 Global is an internationally accredited, online university committed to providing a quality online MBA programme in a global marketplace. Established in 1997, Universitas 21 Global partners with Thomson Learning and 16 member universities to set a world-class standard in online learning. Collectively, its members enroll about 500,000 students, employ around 40,000 academics and researchers and have over 2 million alumni.

    The Universitas 21 Global Member Universities are:

    Albert-Ludwigs-Universitat Freiburg

    Fudan University

    Lund University Sweden

    McGill University

    The National University of Singapore

    The University of Auckland

    The University of Birmingham

    The University of British Columbia

    The University of Edinburgh

    The University of Glasgow

    The University of Hong Kong

    The University of Melbourne

    The University of New South Wales

    The University of Nottingham

    The University of Queensland

    The University of Virginia

    Universitas 21 Global programmes are reviewed and accredited by U21pegagogica, an international quality assurance and accreditation body wholly owned by the 16 university members of Universitas 21. This reviewing body ensures that the degrees and subjects meet the standards of Universitas 21 members worldwide. They assure that the programme is of the same or higher standard than those practiced by the 16 universities. All Universitas 21 Global programmes are offered only upon the completion of this rigorous review and accreditation process.

    Universitas 21 Global programmes are reviewed and accredited by U21pegagogica, an international quality assurance and accreditation body wholly owned by the 16 university members of Universitas 21.
    What is the above?
    New accrediting body?

    Learner
     
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21

    Calling the ODA an outhouse is an attack on the ODA by you. You posted it as your own words. Just because you might have copied it from someone else and placed it here does not mean that it was not an attack by you. You appear both intellectually dishonest and insincere.
     
  8. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    U21 entities

    The Universitas 21 situation is quite confusing, but here's how it appears to me:

    1. "Universitas 21" (U21) is a network of 17 (not 21) research universities in 9 countries, including the University of Virginia in the US. It apparently is a legitimate program; for example, UVA acknowledges its membership. U21 is apparently not a degree-granting entity, which is consistent with the ODA listing (although its member institutions do appear to be legitimate degree-granting entities).

    2. There is also a related entity known as "Universitas 21 Global" (U21G), which is a "joint venture" of Universitas 21 and Thomson Learning. U21G offers an online MBA degree, and plans to offer an online Master's in Information Systems Management. So U21G (unlike U21) is a degree-granting entity: "The MBA programme is awarded by Universitas 21 Global (registered by the Singapore Ministry of Education as a Distance Learning Programme)."

    3. The U21G degrees are apparently accredited by yet another entity, known as "U21pedagogica" (U21p), an "independent review body" which is "a wholly owned subsidiary" of U21. The member institutions of U21 apparently endorse U21G degrees through U21p: "Because the quality assurance steps outlined above are completed by U21pedagogica, the degree certificate awarded by Universitas 21 Global bears the crests of the Universitas 21 partners."


    So ODA correctly indicates that U21 is not a degree-granting entity; however, ODA does not address U21G, which apparently is a degree-granting entity. My superficial impression is that U21G MBA degrees may be legitimate, but are not conventionally accredited. They might prove to be acceptable under Oregon standards, if U21p oversight or Singapore registration was determined to be "the foreign equivalent of U.S.-approved accreditation".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  9. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21


    And you always looking for exuse to atack me.Call me dishonest with your hipocritical outlook on things.
    If oDA made a mistake and falsly lists them in the eligal list
    than why don't you MR HONEST defend the entety that really has no place in the list?

    To be honest I even don't know the mining of this word.
    Now do you have somthing to contribute to this tread desides personal atacks on me.

    This was not ment to be atack on ODA.

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: U21 entities

    Very good analisys. Here is what bothers me is I think they are valid supplier.

    Invalid degrees in Oregon
    Degrees from all of these suppliers are invalid for use in state or licensed employment in Oregon and the use of such degrees can result in criminal prosecution or civil penalties depending on the circumstances of the use. In addition, it is illegal to use such degrees or credentials for any purpose unless the user discloses in writing to all persons to whom the degrees is presented that the supplier is unaccredited and unapproved by ODA.

    Foreign Degree Suppliers
    The degree suppliers listed below that are not in the U.S. do not meet the statutory requirements in ORS 348.609 for foreign degree use in public or licensed employment in Oregon.

    SO

    Universitas 21 is not a degree-awarding body, but it is a degree supplier - of degrees from its members.

    I think its wrong to list them in this category of invalid or eligal suppliers.

    Learner
     
  11. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21

    I'd like to sign up for the "personal attacks on Lerner" team please.....
     
  12. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Is what is problem with dezinformatsiya, Carl?

    Aw come on, Carl. Just because he called ODA an outhouse doesn't make Lerner hostile to ODA. Just because he calls me Junko and calls Gregg a mill operator doesn't make Lerner someone who can't play well in groups. See, someone told me on the q.t. that Lerner was a poor misunderstood little innocent, and Lerner himself says he isn't responsible for what he says. I really don't know what else you want, Carl, you unreasonable person! What next, Carl? You're going to demand that people make sense, I suppose? Bozhe moi, Carl, pretty soon you're gonna sound like Huffman or DesElms. And where will you be then, comrade?
     
  13. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Is what is problem with dezinformatsiya, Carl?

    :p
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should ODA midify the writeup for Universitas 21

    I didnt know that you were not signed on.
    You are there in every chance there is.

    How about addressing the unjust write up?

    I didn't think so, Its to borring ?
    Now new atack on Learner here you get a little exited.

    I think ODA should do the right thing, and if any of the "one of us" is realy what they are claiming to be then they will recognize
    the unjust inclusion of U21 in that list.

    I have a better sujestion to ODA

    Since WASC is not degree awarding body why don't they list
    them on that site and maybe NACES as well Yea how about that?

    And I understood the word outhouse - as out use or exedurate.

    I will write to Alan and ask if Degree by NACES or NCASC are valid in ODA?

    Learner:D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2005
  15. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    Universitas 21

    Universitas 21 is a complex situation. Any degrees issued by its members under their own names are of course legal if those members are accredited or have the usual national approvals.

    Our research on this issue is about six months old, but at that time we found that there was no U-21 entity anywhere in the world that had appropriate legal authority to issue degrees in its own name. As you are no doubt aware, Oregon requires that an entity that relies solely on the approval of a foreign government for its degree-issuance authority must show that its legal authority is essentially the same as other colleges approved by that government and that its degrees are all usable inside the nation of authorization.

    We know of no nation that treats any U21 variant as a fully-approved domestic university.

    We have had several inquiries about this entity, thus our decision to add it to our web site.
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: Universitas 21

    Thanks for clarification,
    I understand that point well, what I see as a problem is the following:

    Invalid degrees in Oregon
    Degrees from all of these suppliers are invalid for use in state or licensed employment in Oregon and the use of such degrees can result in criminal prosecution or civil penalties depending on the circumstances of the use. In addition, it is illegal to use such degrees or credentials for any purpose unless the user discloses in writing to all persons to whom the degrees is presented that the supplier is unaccredited and unapproved by ODA.

    Foreign Degree Suppliers
    The degree suppliers listed below that are not in the U.S. do not meet the statutory requirements in ORS 348.609 for foreign degree use in public or licensed employment in Oregon.

    U21 is a valid supplier and to be listed in eligal list is not proper.

    Just like I wouldnt list NACES, IEEE, WASC etc in the list like this.

    Maybe - a line or two about them beeng valid suplier and marketer
    but not degree granting institution.

    On another hand U21G seems like having accreditation from MoE.

    Regards,

    Learner
     
  17. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Re: Universitas 21

    Lerner, which part of Alan's explanation did you not understand?
     
  18. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Lerner has been confronted about a zillion times for copying text without attribution. He was confronted back in the MosheW days and he's been confronted repeatedly on this forum. Each time he says, "OK, I understand, I won't do it again," and then he just goes off and does it again. I don't think he's stupid. I think he's lying. Sorry, I know that's not a civil thing to say but if someone lies to my face I'm going to call them a liar, civility be damned.
    (By the way, I'd like to point out that lying, by definition, is uncivil). With all that out of the way I'd like to add that of all the people in the world, Lerner steals quotes from Dr. Marianus? As if Dr. Marianus is some sort of authoritative source of impecable information? He's just another shill!

    Overall, Lerner is laughable. A joke. He's like a rodeo clown. Lots of action, flash, movement and color but in the end it's just a distraction. You've only to ask yourself what he's distracting you away from with his antics.

    If I was wrong when I wrote Lerner=Azad, I'm more likely to be right if I say Lerner=buffoon (look that one up, Lerner)
    Jack
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Universitas 21

    The part were talks about supliers, I think thet U21 is legal supplier.
    I'm not the only person who thinks that U21is legal supplier.
    and shouldn't be on this list, they don't grant degrees but they are
    a supplier. As such they are one of the MOST LEGAL supliers and marketers.

    Why this is so hard to understand?

    learner
     
  20. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    It is obvius when you don't like the message you go to kill the mesanger.

    I posted 2 posts that night from the same article, the first one had link, the second one was going to have link, I paste it but it didn't pasete for some reason, and it was an extract from the same articcle. So because of this technicality you go and call me names, lier etc.

    Readers well know who is the clown mr Jack A__.

    Some peole here earned my respect, their confrontations and remarks I take seriusly. some I rwaly don't care is just BW letters on the screen.

    Learner.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2005

Share This Page