Evaluating non-U.S. degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Alan Contreras, Aug 29, 2005.

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  1. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    I have asked ACICS for any information they have about any Asian operations of the California ITU.

    Those of us who work with international evaluations are aware of many problem situations in southeast and southern Asia right now. There is more outright fakery in that region (plain old misuse of school names) than anywhere else, and it is very difficult to determine the truth in many cases.

    Our advice to all interested parties is to treat all new distance-ed providers, worldwide, with extreme caution. Never take at face value something that a degree supplier tells you, and make certain that a "government official" really is one, and that any statements by such an official regarding the nature of a degree supplier can be corroborated.

    Government officials in all nations, including ours, sometimes lie. Some of them lie all the time. Some take bribes. Some, including U.S. officials, have degrees purchased from degree mills.

    Even after you have firm evidence from a government, we advise asking a professional U.S. evaluation service (e.g. AACRAO, ECE of Milwaukee, Wisconsin (the ECE in Mississippi is a fake), Silny Associates or another NACES member, for a second opinion. They will charge a small fee (as we do). We recommend asking TWO services to evaluate the provider's status.

    Trust not in disembodied voices on DegreeInfo, "intercambianse sombreros," as Pablo Neruda put it, except that here, they constantly change masks, not hats. Like the captured object in Ghostbusters, many are simply a "Class 4 Roving Vapor," which also applies to the schools whose virtues they extroll, er, extoll.

    Don't be fleeced. Make sure the sheepskin is real.
     
  2. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Alan is 100% right.

    I would add one more recomendation, that is in some cases when licensing is the goal even NACES evaluations my not be sufficient.

    For Social Work - contact Council on Social Work Education

    http://www.cswe.org/programs/ISWDRES/start.htm

    The Office of Social Work Accreditation and Educational Excellence (OSWAEE) is part of the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE), a national, educational, and service organization representing graduate and undergraduate professional social work programs in major colleges and universities in the United States of America. The office of the Council on Social Work Education is recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation as the sole accrediting agency for social work education in the United States. The office’s International Social Work Degree Recognition and Evaluation Service (ISWDRES) recognizes academic credentials in social work that are comparable to accredited baccalaureate and master’s degrees in social work in the United States. Recognition is necessary to establish qualifications for employment, graduate school admission, membership in the National Association of Social Workers, state licensing, and/or certification.

    Basis for Recognition

    Recognition is based on the general comparability of the program objectives (as stated in the program catalogue or program’s official memorandum) and level of the applicant’s social work education to social work education in the United States.

    Application Procedures

    The applicant fills an ISWDRES online screening form available here, under the Programs and Services section and submits a $10.00 processing fee. The form is delivered to the ISWDRES inbox ([email protected]). The online form is used to determine if the applicant has a social work degree. If the applicant has a social work degree/major, then an application, either online (pdf/word) or by regular mail, is sent to the applicant.

    Issuance of Determination

    The ISWDRES decision is communicated in a formal letter. Each applicant is entitled to one copy of the evaluation plus one copy for a designee (e.g., a college or university, a licensing board, or a potential employer). If no designee is indicated on the application form, two copies of the evaluation will be sent to the applicant. Additional copies can be sent to anyone designated at a cost of $10 each.

    Evaluations are generally made within 30 days of receiving complete documentation.


    For Engineering - ABET evaluation - for PE licensing etc

    Learner
     
  3. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Thanks Lerner. I'd also like to compliment you on your improved English language skills. You're almost back to the point you were when you were MosheW (in the early days, at least)
    Jack
     
  4. Danny Ng

    Danny Ng New Member


    Mr. Contreras,

    Are you referring to non-US degrees, the US degrees offered outside US or the degrees offered by non-US institutions?

    Any information you have on California ITU on EMBA certificate program?

    Thanks
     
  5. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Ha! Very good! I was wondering when this was gonna' bubble to the surface.

    Let the (Lerner's) denials begin! :cool:
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    This is funny, now I'm who?
    :)
    Gregg you are right on, this person is not me.

    And you are so happy to be wrong, hay the Azad is now MosheW.

    Lets see what you call me tomorrow.

    As if I care.

    This became one big joke and notting more.

    It's interesting that all the personal crap surfecing when I mention Professional Accreditation, do I see a trend here:)

    Are all of you work for universities that provide programs that are NOT professionally accredited?
    Is that whats eating you inside?

    Interesting

    Learner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2005
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Alan is 100% right.

    I would add one more recomendation, that is in some cases when licensing is the goal even NACES evaluations my not be sufficient.

    For Social Work - contact Council on Social Work Education

    http://www.cswe.org/programs/ISWDRES/start.htm

    The Office of Social Work Accreditation and Educational Excellence (OSWAEE) is part of the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE), a national, educational, and service organization representing graduate and undergraduate professional social work programs in major colleges and universities in the United States of America. The office of the Council on Social Work Education is recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation as the sole accrediting agency for social work education in the United States. The office’s International Social Work Degree Recognition and Evaluation Service (ISWDRES) recognizes academic credentials in social work that are comparable to accredited baccalaureate and master’s degrees in social work in the United States. Recognition is necessary to establish qualifications for employment, graduate school admission, membership in the National Association of Social Workers, state licensing, and/or certification.

    Basis for Recognition

    Recognition is based on the general comparability of the program objectives (as stated in the program catalogue or program’s official memorandum) and level of the applicant’s social work education to social work education in the United States.

    Application Procedures

    The applicant fills an ISWDRES online screening form available here, under the Programs and Services section and submits a $10.00 processing fee. The form is delivered to the ISWDRES inbox ([email protected]). The online form is used to determine if the applicant has a social work degree. If the applicant has a social work degree/major, then an application, either online (pdf/word) or by regular mail, is sent to the applicant.

    Issuance of Determination

    The ISWDRES decision is communicated in a formal letter. Each applicant is entitled to one copy of the evaluation plus one copy for a designee (e.g., a college or university, a licensing board, or a potential employer). If no designee is indicated on the application form, two copies of the evaluation will be sent to the applicant. Additional copies can be sent to anyone designated at a cost of $10 each.

    Evaluations are generally made within 30 days of receiving complete documentation.


    For Engineering - ABET evaluation - for PE licensing etc

    Learner
    :D :D :D
     
  8. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    logorrhea
     
  9. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Well, if the frequency and tenor of your protestations is any indicator, I'd say you do care... alot.

    Oh, yeah... that's it. Damn! You figured me out!

    Can't get anything by you! Gotta' get up pretty early in the... oh, you know the rest.

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    All you do is waiting for oportunities to insult me.

    take your offer and you know what to do with it.

    Learner
    -------------------
    Liberalism is a mental disorder
    and the enemy within
     
  11. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    You're unbelievable. No wonder you're so despised around here. That's precisely what you've been doing for the past hour or so. If not, then what were all the "shame on you's" and the sudden remarks about liberals that you added to your signature a few minutes ago? You can't do what you do and expect there to be no consequences. You just don't get it, do you? It boggles the mind.

    Whew. Wow. "Clever, biting come backs" is certianly your middle name.

    So let me get this straight: I extend the olive branch (in another thread, of course); propose "peace talks"; and suspend all negative remarks about you while you mull it over. After some prodding, you say a half-hearted "okay," but accompanied by some kind of lame thing about you being tired or something; or gotta' catch a train... I can't remember exactly at the moment. But my point is that you clearly wanted to defer further talk about it until later. Fine. I continued to cut you some slack. Then you returned and flatly ignored the offer and went about your business as if it had neither been made, nor agreed to. Then, still withholding negativity, I asked you where was either your offer to begin making arrangements, or your request that I do so... which was also ignored. Having blown-off my "offer," as you put it, you're surprised that I've proceeded as though all bets were off?

    You wanna' work it out? I'm still here... and still game. I'll happily stop any further criticism of you this moment if you'll do the honorable thing and proceed in good faith with that which I proposed, and to which you agreed... but clearly never intended to follow-up on.

    I would love not to believe you're a troll and a liar and a troublemaker anymore. If you're really the nice guy you've said you are in other threads, I cannot see why you would not want to have "peace talks" with me so we can come to some kind of understanding and maybe put all of this bickerijng to rest. I made it as attractive to you as I could. I offered to keep private whatever part of our private talks you did not want disclosed to anyone, even if I got upset with you and could easily have used it against you were I a less ethical person.

    We -- you and I -- have an opportunity to put this to rest, once and for all; to learn things about one another -- or at least I about you (since I'm pretty much already an open book) -- that might make me, once I understand them, be somewhat more sympathetic to your plight; to understand you; to empathize; to maybe even become a friend.

    And you're squandering it. The only possible reason that any of us can come up with -- and, believe me, we've been talking about you plenty around here -- that you would do such a stupid thing is that you have so much to hide; and that you don't want me learning that everything we've said about you is true... or worse; that maybe you're really not the nice guy you say you are, as we've said, all along.

    If that's wrong, then prove it by entering into good-faith discussions with me -- privately, and guaranteed to stay that way unless you give your express permission for it to be otherwise -- so that we can figure out what's really going on, here, with you; and so I can have understanding and empathy (instead of what I'm currently feeling toward you).

    Believe me, Lerner... if I came out and said, publicly, that I understand now; that I get what's going on with Lerner and that he's really okay, despite what we first thought... I promise you, your problems around here would stop in a heartbeat. No one would be on your case any longer. I wouldn't even have to say why, or give anyone any private information about you. After all I've said here about you, believe me, if I said I was wrong and Lerner's okay, everyone would take that on its face.

    That's your opportunity. And you're blowing it. You apparently prefer this crap going on between you and me and so many others around here. You apparently like being the object of scorn and... and... well, I can't even list all the negative feelings that so many have had around here toward you.

    This can all come to an end, Lerner. You keep saying you're just a regular guy -- a nice guy -- who's just misunderstood; who never hurt anyone; who never did anything dishonorable; who doesn't lie; who isn't actually Rector or MosheW or godknows whom else; who just wants to find a good Russian-language PhD program that's DL and accredited (and that that was really the only reason you were toying with IUFS back when); that you're not a troll; that you don't really post unspeakable things about us on AED; that you're not Azad; that your English really is broken, and that when it's suddenly not, it's not just a slip-up on your part and that you're just more on your game; and godknows whatever else you've been saying in your own defense.

    Okay. Fine. Apparently you don't understand: I want to believe those things. I want to like you. I want this silly stuff to end. I want to work it out. I want to tell everyone that Lerner's okay; and that we should cut him some slack... maybe even apologize.

    I'm trying to make all that happen.

    But you resist. Then you wonder why no one will lift their knee up off your chest.

    The offer's still out there, Lerner. If I thought for two seconds that you'd read these words and really and truly start thinking about how we can do this in good faith and actually accomplish something by it, I'd shut-up about you in every thread around here commencing this moment... and I'd keep it that way for as long as we're talking and working it out in good faith. Thereafter, assuming you really are the nice guy you say you are; and I've really been as all wrong about you as you insist, then, obviously, no further negativity from me (and, at my request and urging, from anyone else, either) will occur here any more.

    How can you turn down a deal like that? That is... if you're for real.

    So, wanna' get back to where we were the other day when you said you'd like to do it, but just couldn't further discuss it at that moment? Wasn't it nice not having me in your face for a day or two while I thought (though obviously wrongly, I now realize) that you were actually taking it seriously? Oh, sure, some others around here kept after you; but if I told them you were really acting in good faith and that we were really trying to figure this thing out, privately, they'd stop, too. Trust me. They know an honest effort when they see one... and they'd like it to turn out that you're okay, too. I mean that.

    So, if you really are the okay guy that you say you are, then when shall we begin this thing? How? By what means of communication?

    C'mon, Lerner. You can't be likin' this any more than anyone else around here does. Let's bury the hatchet. Let's have our little "peace talks," and you help me understand what's really going on with you; that you're really okay; and that we should stop thinking of you the way that we obviously do.

    When and how do we begin? Should we take this offline now? Or should we still hammer-out some ground rules here? Or what?

    It's your call. If you tell me that you'll think about it -- and I mean seriously, this time -- I'll shut-up about you right now. And I'll wait patiently for you to tell me what our next move is. Others may keep at you, but I will not.

    So... shall we? What say you? Honesttogod... I'm serious, here. I want to work this out. Help me, help you.

    Your move.
     
  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'm not usually an Eleanor Roosevelt fan, but...

    "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

    This is the second thread in a week where Lerner has made a useful comment and been subsequently bashed by board regulars. I find that a bit disquieting, expecially given the descent other forums on our subject have suffered once in-fighting took the place of meaningful discourse.

    Can we as a community please get back to discussing ideas? Or at least events?

    -=Steve=-
     
  13. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: I'm not usually an Eleanor Roosevelt fan, but...

    The pursuit of that is completely what's behind my outreach to Lerner... on which I hope he will take me up. And, as promised, while I wait for his response -- yet again -- I'm refraining from writing anything further that's negative about him. I would encourage others to do the same... though I fear it will be short lived because Lerner will not take it seriously, as he did earlier. But I'm hoping that will not be the case this time. Fingers crossed.
     
  14. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Re: I'm not usually an Eleanor Roosevelt fan, but...

    Steve - I hope you know that I've got nothing against you personally and I have no reason to believe that you've got anything against me (except, perhaps, that I'm one of the people hounding Lerner). That being said I'd like to take exception to the above quotation. As a Clinical Social Worker I spend a large portion of my time "talking about people." Does that mean I have a small mind? I hope not. Besides, just because Mrs. Roosevelt said it doesn't mean it's true.

    My next point is related more directly to Lerner. Gregg has stated in the post just before mine that he is going to tone down his negative statements about Lerner. That's fine. I might do that too. But, this should not be misconstrued as an abandonnment of the issue on my part. I don't mind saying that I do not believe that Lerner is who he pretends to be. I am convinced that he is MosheW from aed. If you read MosheW's postings on aed you will clearly see that at a specific point he transforms himself from a fluent English speaking person to a barely literate immigrant. He posts on the exact same issues. He makes the exact same mistakes. He commits the exact same errors of attribution and then makes the exact same apologies and then he just turns around and does it over and over again. You don't have to just accept what I'm saying. You can go to Google Groups and do your own search. You will see the exact same posts that I have seen.

    So what? Who cares? What difference does it make?
    First, it makes him a liar. With that as a foundation, you have to then wonder, why is he lying? There must be an agenda. A hidden agenda. I wonder what it might be? Would you like to guess?

    Can I "prove" that MosheW is Lerner? No, I can not.
    Do I have to "prove" that MosheW is Lerner? No, I do not.
    I don't believe that I've ever visited the "IT and Computer-related degrees" forum. I rarely visit the Political forum. If these threads cause you distress then you might want to simply not read them.
    Jack
     
  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Re: Re: I'm not usually an Eleanor Roosevelt fan, but...

    Steve - I hope you know that I've got nothing against you personally and I have no reason to believe that you've got anything against me (except, perhaps, that I'm one of the people hounding Lerner).

    No, none of this is personal for me, don't worry. It's just that I've come to value this community, and I'm simply responding to a situation that I think is overall a negative for it.

    That being said I'd like to take exception to the above quotation. As a Clinical Social Worker I spend a large portion of my time "talking about people." Does that mean I have a small mind? I hope not. Besides, just because Mrs. Roosevelt said it doesn't mean it's true.

    I had no idea someone might construe it that way, and that's certainly not what I meant! I'm sure your work is worthwhile and valuable, and in no way do I think your mind is small (or Gregg's or Lerner's for that matter). My apologies; it was meant as a throwaway comment.

    My next point is related more directly to Lerner. Gregg has stated in the post just before mine that he is going to tone down his negative statements about Lerner. That's fine. I might do that too. But, this should not be misconstrued as an abandonnment of the issue on my part. I don't mind saying that I do not believe that Lerner is who he pretends to be. I am convinced that he is MosheW from aed. If you read MosheW's postings on aed you will clearly see that at a specific point he transforms himself from a fluent English speaking person to a barely literate immigrant. He posts on the exact same issues. He makes the exact same mistakes. He commits the exact same errors of attribution and then makes the exact same apologies and then he just turns around and does it over and over again. You don't have to just accept what I'm saying. You can go to Google Groups and do your own search. You will see the exact same posts that I have seen.

    I honestly don't care what happens on aed. In a way, I hope that makes mine an opinion more worth considering rather than less, as it may more closely mirror those of new DegreeInfo readers. You guys are bashing Lerner even when he makes a useful comment. That's not the way to encourage participation from new members of our community who may have a lot to offer.

    This is probably not the best analogy, but it's late and I'm tired, so here goes: Imagine you want to teach your puppy not to poop on the rug. When your puppy finally starts going outside to poop in the yard just as you prefer, the last thing you want to do is go smack it with a rolled up newspaper.

    Realize here that if he'd said something inane and you'd responded negatively, I'd have said nothing. But it seems like you and Gregg are trying to take it upon yourselves to decide that Lerner has lost the right to participate here, and I don't think that's your prerogative.

    So what? Who cares? What difference does it make?
    First, it makes him a liar. With that as a foundation, you have to then wonder, why is he lying? There must be an agenda. A hidden agenda. I wonder what it might be? Would you like to guess?


    Not really.

    Can I "prove" that MosheW is Lerner? No, I can not.
    Do I have to "prove" that MosheW is Lerner? No, I do not.
    I don't believe that I've ever visited the "IT and Computer-related degrees" forum. I rarely visit the Political forum. If these threads cause you distress then you might want to simply not read them.


    This thread was supposed to be about evaluation of non-U.S. credentials. Lerner respected that. You and Gregg (for all your positive contributions elsewhere!) did not. I think that calls for a response from members who value civility, not for us to simply stop reading.

    Anyway, I recognize that by this point I've said my piece. You and/or Gregg are welcome to have the last word, if you wish.

    -=Steve=-
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Quotable

    By the way, Alan, I love this quote!

    -=Steve=-
     
  17. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Re: Re: Re: I'm not usually an Eleanor Roosevelt fan, but...

    I understand your points and appreciate the fact that there are some, perhaps many on this board who prefer not to approach the issues that others approach. While I also value civility, I place a higher value on honesty. Because of that I appreciate your comments.
    Jack
     
  18. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Having read Jack's and Steve's exchange here, and all things considered, I agree with Jack. But I'm also sensitive to what Steve's saying. Good points, both of you. And, as Jack pointed-out, this ain't over. But I'm happy to suspend for now while Lerner contemplates. That's only fair. And I'll honor it at all costs for as long as I can.

    And I really want to honor my promise to Lerner, so there's not much more I can -- or at least, for now, am willing to -- add except that I hope against hope that Lerner will embrace my proposal and will contact me privately with an invitation to begin talking. I cannot begin to tell you how much I'd like to get to know this guy, appreciate him in the way that he'd like us to, maybe help him become a more sincere and credible member of this group, here -- not that anyone woke up and made that my job, mind you. But I'm just sayin'.

    Lerner, if you're listenin'... let's work it out. Please.

    Thank you, Steve... and Jack. And even Lerner, as I think about it. Even Lerner.
     
  19. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    I recently made an appeal to Nosborne (not really expecting a response) but more to indicate that the issue at hand has to do with the rules of evidence (how many times have I heard it said, "This isn't a court of law?") Of course it isn't but those rules of evidence mean something nonetheless. I'm referring to the differnce between "beyond a shadow of a doubt," and "by the preponderance of the evidence." I do not believe that Learner is guilty beyond the shadow of the doubt. I believe that he is guilty by the preponderance of the evidence. I also believe that virtually no one has actually gone to google groups and done a search of the posts of MosheW (I know, I really should get a life, but TV sucks) and I can not honestly believe that anyone would not be absolutely convinced that MosheW=Lerner and that the early posts of MosheW CLEARLY indicates that he has extremely good control of the English language and that all his later posts are contrived. Please believe that I have nothing to gain on either side of this specific issue aside from wanting our forum to be populated by people who are honestly expressing their opinions. For example, I have debated with our good friend russ and while I have disagreed with everything he's said, I recognize that he is being honest in his opinions and I have never accused him of lying. I have NEVER suggested that Lerner should be banned and I would like to specifically state that I do not believe that banning is a good policy. I believe that, given enough rope, Lerner will hang himself. Let's face it, he's already walked himself up to the platform. Lerner has repeatedly stated that he used to post on aed. I did a search and discovered that MosheW posts on all the same topics as Lerner, uses the same inconsistently broken English as Lerner, but if you go back to MosheW's early posts, he speaks perfect English. I have openly asked Lerner to tell us what his old aed screen name was. He has ignored my question. What am I to make of this? I will ask again.
    Lerner, what was you old aed screen name?
    He will refuse to answer because if he answers he will betray his own deception.
    I don't care if Lerner wants to hang around degreeinfo and shill for mills. I just want him to be honest about what he's doing.
    I think this has been a "civil" post.
    Jack
     
  20. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    So do I. But I won't say that I agree or disagree with you as to the post's content because right now even that would be breaking my promise. And I would never in a million years suggest that you not post what you just did. That said, right now -- and probably only for a short time, if his past performance is any indicator -- I'd kinda' like for Lerner to enjoy a bit of a respite from all the "group on Lerner" stuff we've been doing lately... while he considers -- hopefully in good faith -- my proposal; and so he can see that we, too, are of good faith and will, and are willing to pull back while he has a chance -- and he definitely deserves a chance -- to kinda' think about things.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2005

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