How are 'Less-than-Wonderful' Graduates Hired at RA Universities?

Bruce wrote something elsewhere that I think deserves a thread to itself:

The degree mills survive by selling degrees to somebody.

That's what I want to discuss. How does it happen? It's something that I really can't understand.

All hiring that I've ever observed (from my student's-eye perspective) at RA universities has been extremely competitive. There were lots of applicants for positions and those doing the hiring looked at applicants very closely.

The doctoral-research universities want people with research experience, often in specialized areas and problems. The 'top-tier' schools among them don't just want researchers, they want productive scholars with established reputations or younger individuals who are certifiable rising-stars.

Many of the masters universities hire in much the same way, though they may weight teaching a little higher and research a little lower. I know for a fact that hiring at SF State is extremely competitive. There are national searches, people fly in from all over the country to interview, and it's incomprehensible to me that a degree-mill degree would be overlooked.

Hell, even community colleges around here are pretty competitive. (I'm sure the same is true in Boston.) It's common to find Ph.D.s who can't find jobs elsewhere taking positions at the community colleges. Then they try to line up often-unpaid 'research associate' slots at nearby universities to keep from dead-ending and hope to move up.

So... how do people with degree mill degrees get hired by RA schools in the first place?

Does hiring vary a lot by discipline? Is it relatively easy to get a job teaching business, for example? Business is such a high-demand subject that there are always open positions. And I gather that teaching isn't always the most attractive thing for businesspeople to do.

Are most of these people adjuncts? Are they hired in a rush to teach a single class section that's starting in a few days and lacks an instructor? (You're alive, you'll do.)

Are the doubtful degrees even relevant to faculty hiring? I notice that many of these people were already teaching with masters degrees and suddenly sported a non-accredited doctoral degree after they were working for a while. So is this often just a matter of individual ego and degree-envy?

Do some ethically-challenged school administrations pressure their non-Ph.D. faculty to get doctorates, in order to make the school's stats look better? But they don't care in the least where the degree comes from?

Are some of these RA schools small private institutions where administrators may be more apt to hire personal friends and acquaintances? Lots of hiring in all industries is done from 'inside', and I'm sure that education is no different. Maybe some less-than-ethical school bigshots tell their best friends: Sure I'll hire you, but you gotta have an advanced degree. So...get one.

Or.... unlikely as it sounds... do a few of these non-accredited schools really offer good programs? I can easily understand hiring a few non-accredited degree holders in a few special situations myself. So are these administrators and selection committees familiar with these non-accredited schools and perhaps they like what the school is doing? Unfortunately, many of these schools are so millish that it's hard to imagine that happening, but it's at least theoretically possible in other cases, I guess.

I take this kind of stuff very seriously. If I see an individual with a questionable degree listed on an RA faculty list, that doesn't just make me question the individual him/herself. It makes me question the entire university. The fact that a degree-mill degree could pass says something, and says it very loudly too, about the selection process for faculty at that particular school. If the selection process is questionable in one case, then doubt is cast on all the other faculty members as well. Maybe the rest of them have accredited degrees, but are they really qualified to teach the particular classes that they are teaching? Does anyone at the school even care?

 

teach

Dear Sir,

When you type in the info; say into google, to conduct the search - what do you type in?

This is interesting information you have shared and I would like to learn more.

Thank you.

 

Excellent question, I'm glad you started this thread.

Every once in awhile, when I'm bored, I'll do some Google searches for fake degrees. I don't get too involved, I use simple search terms like "ph.d. shelbourne university". What I've noticed during these admittedly very non-scientific searches is the types of RA schools that have faculty with bogus degrees. Usually;

1) They are not primarily DL schools like NCU, Capella, TUI, etc.

2) They are not elite institutions (Harvard, Amherst, Reed).

3) They are not major state universities.

What they tend to be are small-medium, rather generic schools, usually private, non-profit. I think there are reasons for this;

1) DL schools realize the importance of legitimate accreditation probably the most of any other type of school. If they see a potential faculty member with a Ph.D. from a school they've never heard of, chances are some red flags will go up.

2) Elite institutions and major state universities, as you mentioned, have a very rigorous hiring process. A faculty applicant not only needs the Ph.D., but the degree also better be from a school that's well-known.

3) Generic schools are used to flying under the radar, and probably have settled into a nice little routine, because they're not used to intense scrutiny like the larger schools deal with.

Speaking for my own discipline (Criminal Justice), there has been a huge surge since 9/11, with a renewed focus on homeland security, terrorism, etc. A school for which I teach has had such a growth in their CJ program that they are aggressively recruiting potential faculty at police departments, courts, etc.

I must admit here that quite a few of the bogus degrees I've come across have been in CJ. Like any other business, the mills will give the customer what they want.

Perhaps they are adjuncts, but if so, they have more of a permanent relationship than just teaching a course or two. I don't know of any school that would list "hired guns" on their faculty websites.

Now, I think you got to the crux of the matter. Looking back at the fakes that I've found, I remember that not all of the faculty in their departments had doctorates. So, it very well might be ego and envy, although I'm sure that a lot of schools that don't require a doctorate will pay some sort of bonus or incentive to those who earn one.

I mentioned, way back in the days of a.e.d., that I saw two professors in the catalog of a RA school (Springfield College in MA) that had unaccredited doctorates, one from California Coast, the other from Columbia Pacific (pre-implosion). Both schools were, at the time, considered decent unaccredited alternatives, so no one (other than Steve Levicoff ) really made much of it. If it had been Columbia State or some other odious fraud, I'm sure the e-mails would have been flying to Springfield by the dozen.

I too take it very seriously, not only because it exposes flaws in the school's hiring process, but it also inadvertently provides ammo to the mill apologists to "prove" that their bogus credentials are actually taken seriously by academia.

 

Another possibility is that some were hired on the basis of their master's degrees and earned the unaccredited doctorates later. Adding a credential to one's record would seem to be an administrative task, likely carried out by someone who isn't going to scrutinize it.

While at UoP, I was doing a records audit and came across someone holding a doctorate from an unaccredited school. She'd completed doctoral credit at an RA school (that transcript was in her record), but finished her Ph.D. at Honolulu University for the Arts and Sciences. What ticked me off is that the campus was listing that school by her name in the commencement program and, frustratingly, were paying her at the doctoral level. I had just resigned from UoP, so I didn't make a big stink about it. (I did report it to my supervisor, but I suspect he was the one that approved her increase in pay.) I wonder if she's still getting that pay.

 

Some times the Instructor - faculty may have Accredited BS and MS
degree and milled or unaccredited Ph.D

If the job requirement was Graduate degree than that person got in to the Accredited University or Institute based on his Graduate degree.

Now that person also lists his Ph.D or other post Graduate award.

In some other cases there are Mills that have their school names sound very close to real schools.

Brighthon University ( Mill ) - University of Brighton.( UK) Fully accredited

National University - real one in CA

National University - Hong Kong fony one

And in case of LaSale one in Florida fully accredited and one that was shut down by government in LA.

SO some times the Graduate degree and other confusion and maybe bad HR work.

Learner

 

I had an instructor in my undergrad who holds a legit MBA from an RA school. I will admit he was one of my favorite teachers. He claimed to have his Ph.D, I have checked into it(he posts his resume online) so a simple search found, he did accrue credits for a legit ph.d (more than 90) but then transferred to the infamous Breyer State. Why someone would do this is beyond me.

 

Yap, that mostly the case when the requirement for the position was an earned Graduate Degree that is RA.

As far as Brayer State - its really bad choice.

but he still has an option to earn an RA Post graduate degree.
So maybe and I don't support this but just maybe this thing with Brayer is temporary - interim move or maybe he simply made a mistake because BSU is very deceptive.

They claim accreditation from RA sounding like agency and like Columbia State they use the STATE in their name.

in 1994 a coworker was accepted to national University with Columbia State degree because the admissions were under Impression that he hold degree from Columbia University.

Some times its the admissions that make a mistake.
The same is with hiring faculty in rare cases they may by mistake
hire a milled Ph.D.

Learner

 

I'd like to believe that but the fact that he now teaches for them(listed in his Resume and their sister Canyon College), I highly doubt he didn't/doesn't know what he is doing. In fact mentions his close relationship with the admistration in his resume.

 

Originally posted by BillDayson
So... how do people with degree mill degrees get hired by RA schools in the first place?

Does hiring vary a lot by discipline? Is it relatively easy to get a job teaching business, for example? Business is such a high-demand subject that there are always open positions. And I gather that teaching isn't always the most attractive thing for businesspeople to do.

This is why we must pay business professors higher than we pay English professors.

Are most of these people adjuncts? Are they hired in a rush to teach a single class section that's starting in a few days and lacks an instructor? (You're alive, you'll do.)

Unfortunately, this does happen at many institutions. I have had the experience (more than once) of being called on a Friday afternoon with a request to teach a class starting Monday or Tuesday of the next week.

Are the doubtful degrees even relevant to faculty hiring? I notice that many of these people were already teaching with masters degrees and suddenly sported a non-accredited doctoral degree after they were working for a while. So is this often just a matter of individual ego and degree-envy?

Often, this is precisely the case. I know some tragic cases of full-time community college faculty, with RA masters degrees, who completed doctoral degrees from unaccredited institutions (even writing dissertations of well over 100 pages), only to have those degrees not recognized at all by the college.

Note to those seeking faculty with unaccredited doctrates at RA institutions: Look at the degrees of the other professors in the department. If other full-time professors possess the masters as the highest degree, then the doctorate is likely not required for the position, so the institution is likely not going to monitor the degree as closely as someone who is hiring a new faculty in a department requiring the PhD.


Do some ethically-challenged school administrations pressure their non-Ph.D. faculty to get doctorates, in order to make the school's stats look better? But they don't care in the least where the degree comes from?

This does happen; however, more often the doctorate is sought to advance up the salary scale and academic ranks or to complete personal enrichment goals. Administrators are generally supportive of their faculty seeking doctorates, but I have NEVER had knowledge of any administrator pressuring (or even suggesting) that faculty seek unaccredited degrees.

Are some of these RA schools small private institutions where administrators may be more apt to hire personal friends and acquaintances? Lots of hiring in all industries is done from 'inside', and I'm sure that education is no different.

This definitely occurs, both inside and outside of academia. Small private institutions--other than the exclusive, high tuition colleges--have a harder time recruiting faculty in certain disciplines.

Maybe some less-than-ethical school bigshots tell their best friends: Sure I'll hire you, but you gotta have an advanced degree. So...get one.

Maybe...I've never seen it happen. I certainly cannot say that such a thing never occurs.

Or.... unlikely as it sounds... do a few of these non-accredited schools really offer good programs? I can easily understand hiring a few non-accredited degree holders in a few special situations myself. So are these administrators and selection committees familiar with these non-accredited schools and perhaps they like what the school is doing? Unfortunately, many of these schools are so millish that it's hard to imagine that happening, but it's at least theoretically possible in other cases, I guess.

Good cases have been made for California Coast University, Columbia Pacific University and a few others whose graduates have ended up as college faculty. Some have called these "non-traditional", while others have labeled them "mills".

I take this kind of stuff very seriously. If I see an individual with a questionable degree listed on an RA faculty list, that doesn't just make me question the individual him/herself. It makes me question the entire university. The fact that a degree-mill degree could pass says something, and says it very loudly too, about the selection process for faculty at that particular school. If the selection process is questionable in one case, then doubt is cast on all the other faculty members as well. Maybe the rest of them have accredited degrees, but are they really qualified to teach the particular classes that they are teaching? Does anyone at the school even care?

Rich Douglas' research has shown that HR managers often know precious little about which colleges and universities possess legitimate accreditation. One HR person told me that with over 4,000 higher ed institutions in the U.S. (not to mention the foreign institutions), we can accept that errors will be made, especially if the institution has a legit-sounding name (another finding by Rich). On a few occassions, while serving on hiring boards, I have pointed out that a degree by certain candidates were not RA, most often to the surprise of the other committee members and HR dept. personnel.

Tony Piña
Administrator, Northeastern Illinois University

 

Hi Rich,

I saw a new faculty candidate trying to come in w/ an Almeda degree. I noticed the transcript and pointed it out to the general ED CCC (Susan). She hasn't told me yet, but I would like to see if he tried to defend the degree or not.

Just figured you might find this interesting,

 

In addition to the existing faculty member I spoke about in an earlier post, I had two applicants with RA master's but with fake doctorates. One, claiming a Ph.D. from TC&U, even said on his resume that it was awarded for life experience! The only dilemma I faced was that he was head of recruiting for the National Guard, and I debated whether or not to notify his agency that this guy was attempting to profit from this fraudulent claim. (I posted about it here when it happened.) I just pitched the resume instead.

On another note, I had an applicant call me to follow up on his application, which I hadn't gotten to yet. He asked, "Dr. Douglas"? When I replied in the affirmative, he said, "I'm Dr. So-and-so"....Well, not only was I taken aback by his blatant waving around of his title, it turned out he didn't have the degree yet! He was still working on a DBA from NSU.

What is it with these people?

 

Less than wonderful school graduates

I think sometimes schools of mediocre status might do this out of ignorance. I'm sure that many are hired based on their Master's Degree as others have suggested already. As for hiring friends, I think this happens far more than people believe. It certainly happens at the high school level. They give lip service to wanting the brightest, hardest working dedicatated teachers. But they hired the daughter of their friend or of an existing faculty member. I have been bipassed for teaching jobs several times because of this factor. Of course I can't prove it but here is one scenerio: I had my Master's degree and three years math teaching experience at the time I applied for a local job. All questions in the interview seemed to revolve around how I handed situations in my three years experience. Yet they hired a very nice young lady, fresh out of college, whose father worked at the same school and was on the hiring committee. I certainly felt they wasted my time asking about my "experience" when it was obvious to me they really didn't care about experience. My daughter had this girl for a teacher. She wasn't the worst ever, but she did not have "classroom management" ability. She quit after that first year. I believe the the times that I have been hired in high school and probably even college positions, the reason is because the list of those with the inside advantage had been exhausted. When that list is exhausted, they choose more objectively based on your credentials. Just my opinion!

 

This sort of thing does go on; long ago I did just such a search (dare I use the same verb as der Gugelmeister Bill Dayson, who leaves us all in his wake?) on PWU customers--not to say um graduates--and found the legit landscape littered with 'em. It almost fooled me. Almost, but not quite. This thread is very valuable. Thanks, guys.

 

How does it happen? One explanation...

Though I agree that MOST of the time positions at RA universities are extremely competitive, there are those situations and those little "corners" of academia where this is not the case.

For example, I have found through my personal experience that most HR departments in community colleges and small colleges/universities (whether state funded or not, and perhaps especially the state funded ones who have limited resources) are pretty inept when it comes to background checks. Search committees are not infallible. It is surprising how little about the breadth and depth of academia that some of these people really know. I believe it is entirely possible to BS your way past the HR unit and the search committee and even the college president at some rather small, out-of-the-way institutions where background checks and other modern trends have not caught on yet.

I'm living in one of those areas now, having recently relocated for another position - things are at least 20-30 years behind here, and if there aren't Starbucks, Kinkos, and Walgreens on every other corner there sure as hell aren't solid background checks or awareness of degree fraud either....

Fortunately, most people are honest. But there are lots of places out there in our vast nation where fraudsters can find a hole to crawl into and earn income based on their phony credentials, at least for a time.

Back in Florida, there was a big push on to clean up the community colleges' HR process when it a convincted murderer was discovered on the faculty of Palm Beach Community College. The guy had covered his tracks fairly well, but could have easily been caught by just a little bit more questioning of his whereabouts during "vacations" and "sabbaticals" (which were taken, but spent in jail working off his sentence in Texas!). Once it was uncovered, by accident and by a student, the whole can of worms was blown open to scrutiny by the press and the expected sounds of outrage from the governing board of the college (how could we NOT have known!!! Who let this happen? Who can we fire for this outrage!!!??)

 

I know a popular professor in a tenure track position at a state university who possesses a PWU doctorate. Of course, other professors in his department have the masters as the highest earned degree, so (as is commonly the case) the PhD was obviously not required for the position. I do not know whether this person receives masters or doctoral pay.

Tony

 

One thing (out of many) that I still don't understand is whether it's easy or hard to find a university teaching position.

I'm an old philosophy major. In that field, only a few openings appear each year. They receive applications from all around the country from people willing to fly in at their own expense to interview. There are lots of out of work Ph.D.s with degrees from prominent programs. Universities can afford to be, and usually are, picky.

From hanging around in Berkeley (that's what you are supposed to do there), I know that there's more graduate-level brainpower working as bookstore clerks in that town than you find in many countries.

(I mean whenever I buy a book at Moes, I feel like I'm taking doctoral orals, there are so many literature Ph.D.s behind the counter looking at my choices.)

I still remember Joseph Wang, who used to post here at Degreeinfo. BS from MIT, Ph.D. in Astrophysics from the University of Texas, Austin. But he hadn't found a position, last I heard. (He's a good guy, I hope he finally does.)

On the other hand, I see people with degree-mill degrees happily employed many places. For that matter, I see everyone on Degreeinfo (except me) talking about their teaching gigs. (Apparently non-doctoral students are no longer accepted as DI participants.) There are people talking with a straight face about teaching community college with only 18 graduate units in some field completely different than their bachelors major.

Well... all of this has left me with a really bad case of cognitive dissonance.

How can I find consistency in the easy and the hard?

Why are my own perceptions so seemingly out of tune with a reality where universities don't even care where their professors went to school, let alone in what they did when they were there?

Why are all those damn Ph.D.s working cash registers at Moes??

What do degree mill graduates know that they don't???

 

I'm sure that part of what's going on is the competition from the commercial arena. For example where I work we have probably about 2% of the sofware engineer population with a Ph.D. in computer science (or something similar). I know that some of my collegues with only Bachelor's degrees are teaching part time at local universities. Whereas, I'd be surprised if there were many philosophy classes being taught by people with a Bachelor's as their top degree.

P.S. I'm glad that I got signed up for this forum before being a Ph.D. student or holder became a requirement.

 

I think on the whole that it's easy to find a university position. It's just not easy to find a good, stable one. I'd really hate to have to make a living and support a family on adjunct wages. It's a great part-time or side job, but in most cases not a good full-time career.

In a lot of places you don't even need a higher degree to be an adjunct. I qualified to work as an English instructor at a tech college because I was an ABD PhD candidate. I was paid $20 an hour to work two nights a week from 7pm to 11pm. I think the burnout/turnover rate for those kinds of positions is pretty high.

 

BillDayson: (Apparently non-doctoral students are no longer accepted as DI participants.)

nosborne48: Not true! We'll accept PROFESSIONAL doctorate holders, too! Heck, we even listen to little fauss!

 

I can't answer for cases I've not seen, so I don't know why those people are working in bookstores. But some ideas:

First, many people earn doctorates in fields that are (a) saturated and (b) aren't very transferrable. (Or they don't want to work in other fields.) Bear once noted a long time ago that this country was graduating 4,000 people with anthropology degrees for about 400 jobs. The rest either wait or do something else. (I guess working in a bookstore is something else.)

Another thing to consider is where in one's career the doctorate was earned. I already had a career; the Ph.D. just put a turbo booster on it.

Finally, relating to the first, people highly educated in one field might be looked upon with suspicion by hiring managers in other fields. After all, someone willing to spend several years earning a doctorate in some area might not be the best candidate for a sales, managerial, or customer service (or whatever) career. After all, they've spent years going in a different direction.