UNESCO World publication used by NACES

I was surprised to read that major leading NACES member credential evaluator is using UNESCO World publication and listing of a school as final recomendation that it is RA equivalent.

I read couple of other evaluation from another leading NACES member and it also relied on this World wook.

I was under impression that this book is not used so match for
determining equivalency.

Any way the report was for State Job and it was accepted by the State agency.

learner

 

How 'bout some specifics?

Where did you read this?

Which NACES member agency?

Regarding what kind of degree? For whom? In what? From where?

For use as a qualifying degree for what job? And at what governmental agency?

Etc., etc., etc.



I just love when we get asked to comment on something without being given anywhere near enough information to even shrug our shoulders about it.

 

I read 7 reports so far that use the same publication.

i have to be careful not to heart livelihood and income of people involved.

But to support my post.

the Agency

Educational Records Evaluation Service, Inc.
601 University Avenue, Suite 127
Sacramento, CA 95825
Phone: (916) 921-0790
Fax: (916) 921-0793
email: [email protected]
http://www.eres.com

the state agency - Health Department - Food Control

Profession evaluated is from Soviet University Veterinary Medicine.


the job title is veterinary officer - poultry inspection.

And there are 6 other reports that range from Teaching to engineering.

Some are from Russia others from Argentina and one report from

Poland.

Other agencies as well - All NACES very known and respected services.

They all use this publication very often including evaluations for university admissions.

Regards,

Lerner

 

Okay, look... I don't know where you're from or what country you live in or what you're used to. But in the U.S. we like all the facts, without cryptic gameplaying and evasiveness, before we render opinions. You're still dodging the questions and not giving enough information...

...in other words, you're yankin' our chains.

Until you want to provide all the facts -- including where you read these alleged 7 "reports," and their source, and a place where we can read them, too; and precisely which state agencies; and precisely which jobs; by whom; where, when, how, why, etc., etc., etc. -- then you probably won't get a very meaningful assessment from anyone here.

Which, of course, is your intention, I realize. Perhaps you were hoping we wouldn't notice. But, alas, we have your number.

You just want to get it out there, somehow, that someone whose opinion is routinely relied upon by the accredited world (in this case, a NACES agency... more than one, in fact) is [allegedly] using the infamous UNESCO list -- a haven for diploma mills and others nefarious -- as a reliable indicator of non-U.S. institutional credibility and equivalence with U.S. regionally-accredited colleges and universities. Your P.T. Barnum-like rationale being, of course, that long after everyone's forgotten where the read it, they'll remember that they read it.

Nice try.

When (or, more accurately, if) you want to stop screwing around and misleading by means of misinformation planting with face straight, then you'll provide accurate references and other documentation into which we can really sink our teeth; at which point you'll get the assessment you seek. Until that point, stop jerkin' us around.

 

Wow chilllll offff .

I stated honest truth.
Maybe other more objective persons who had evaluations of the type I mentioned will back me up.

This doode is full of ------------

I have obligation not to reveal the names or final details.

I'm not going to react to your redoubles accusations and slander, were are you from TX i bet ?.
It has nothing to do with were I'm from or what I do.

I will do one thing and ask a person for permission to publish his evaluation by agency I mentioned before.

Then we will see who full of you now what.

Adios

Lerner

 

While I respect Learner's desire to protect someone's confidential personal information I also have to say that Gregg has made some good points. One thing that I would want to know is what other steps were taken to evaluate this person's credentials? If there was a comprehensive evaluation performed and then as a final step the evaluator consulted the UNESCO guide then I'm not sure there is any problem. If, on the other hand the schools listing in the UNESCO guide was the sole criteria used in the evaluation then I would not only question the value of the evaluation, I'd question the ability of the evaluator. Learner's first statement suggests that this NACES evaluator is relying exclusively on the UNESCO guide to determine RA equivalency. If this is not the case then I'd suggest to Learner that he 1) report on all the other steps used in the evaluation of credentials and rephrase his original statement appropriately, or
2) contact an attorney (as you are about to be sued by a NACES evaluator).
Jack
(BTW, if this evaluation was all done in a legitimate manner by a legitimate evaluator, why would revealing the information imperil anyone's job?)

 

Which you're asking us to take, on blind faith, at face value; and without anywhere near enough information to do so... considering the source.

But, alas, they haven't, have they? And since I find it highly unlikely that any NACES agency would rely on the UNESCO listings as the sole and final indicator of regionally-accredited equivalency, I doubt that anyone will.

Ah, yes... the layers of mystery surrounding how you managed to misspell "Learner" begin to peel away... "dude."

Then, knowing that you really could not provide anywhere near enough information here to be credible, maybe you should have thought twice about starting this thread in the first place, no?

But you just did. And, clearly, you wouldn't recognize "slander" if it walked up and slapped you on the face. Or libel, either, I dare say.

Ooooh. Ouch.

Texans, everywhere, are insulted.

No one said it did. Re-read -- only sober. this time -- what I wrote and the context in which (and the point I was making by so doing) I even mentionied where you're from, and you'll be forced to agree.

That would be just peachy... and is all I was asking for in the first place. Responding to reasonable requests for sufficient detail with claims of "I read the reports (so, therefore, you can be assured that it's true" don't feed the bulldog.

The only person who claimed anyone was full of anything around here was you, "dude." Try to keep up.

 

How can I tell that the Sr evaluator followed the company rules.
If she or he loose their job because of this evaluation.

I don't have the copy of the evaluation in front of me at this moment and will review it to see if
there was a comprehensive evaluation performed and then as a final step the evaluator consulted the UNESCO guide

The IAU and 1971 year of listing of the respected Soviet university is mentioned on the bottom of the page and that what caught my attention.

If the publication is so bad how come it is quoted and used by the agency?

I do remember reading in the middle of the page that it was based on world pier publication and papers.

I will post the evaluations and may remove names.

the docs are in my office and I don't feel like driving or taking train to to LI.

Hope I can do this legally, I don't need legal expenses there is no interest in this and I don't benefit from this at all.

 

listing in the UNESCO guide was the sole criteria used in the evaluation

It apeared to me that it was.

If I missed something I will correct the initial post.

On Monday eve i will post one evaluation per permision of a person who is kind to share it with the board.

learner.

Gerg your acusations are noting more than paranoya that every one posting here has an agenda to promote something.

Well my post was simple I read more than one evaluation and was surprised to see what I in my mind undestand as UNESCO IAU listings used.

Would you agree that there shouldnt be mention of this publication on a report from respected agency?

Or is it OK with you that it was there as long there was other source that I havent seen?

 

listing in the UNESCO guide was the sole criteria used in the evaluation

It apeared to me that it was.

If I missed something I will correct the initial post.

On Monday eve i will post one evaluation per permision of a person who is kind to share it with the board.

learner.

Gerg your acusations are noting more than paranoya that every one posting here has an agenda to promote something.

Well my post was simple I read more than one evaluation and was surprised to see what I in my mind undestand as UNESCO IAU listings used.

Would you agree that there shouldnt be mention of this publication on a report from respected agency?

Or is it OK with you that it was there as long there was other source that I havent seen?

And I did get privet messages from people who didn't post because
they don't need to deal with persons like YOU!
Quik to pass jugement and use insulting lingo.

I hope once I post the report will teach you some restrain.
Before acusations fly.

 

Indeed.

This isn't a court of law, folks. Lerner offered some information that readers can do with as they will.

 

As you may have noticed, I am doing with it as I will. Learner has posted information and has, on two occasions, suggested that this information is so provocative that people will lose their jobs if it gets out. Yet, he gives incomplete information so that it can not be validated, verified or otherwise seen as being credible. In situations where peoples employment is potentially at stake I believe that you either post everything or you post nothing at all. This may not be a court of law but it may be only one small step short of a court of law. Information posted is admissable, no? People on these forums have been sued, have lost their jobs and have gone to jail (we have to go all the way back to aed for that). I am looking for specificity or I am looking for a withdrawal. Anything in the middle is simply hearsay and means nothing. If Learner wants to drop a bomb then he can drop a bomb. If you're not going to drop the bomb (provide complete information) then don't expect anyone to take the (partial) information too seriously. Personally, I don't care which course he takes.
Jack
(now where did I put Mead Gruver's phone number?)

 

What does NACES membership tell us about an evaluator?

What is the 'UNESCO World publication'? I've heard of the International Handbook of Universities and there seems to be some kind of listing on a UNESCO website somewhere. But I don't know precisely what that listing is or whether it's the same as the IHU listing.

That's 'GAAP' for you: Look to see if the questioned school is listed in a standard reference book.

That's what most university admissions officers do, apparently. Credential evaluators probably aren't any different. John Bear just paraphrased that rule of thumb and dubbed it 'GAAP' in one of his books. (I seem to recall John saying that he heard it described in a presentation at an AACRAO conference.)

The problem with that is that the references defer to the local authorities in whatever country it is. Some countries run excellent, highly credible higher education systems. But others don't. There are off-shore accreditation havens out there. And even some of the countries with demanding standards on paper might be subverted with a bribe.

So if a reference book defers to local authorities, the credibility of the listings for a particular country would probably depend on how credible that country's higher education system is.

Argentina and Poland might be pretty good. I'm less confident about 'former Soviet'.

But bottom line, the verification of international higher education institutions, standards and awards is a real disaster area right now. The problem is only going to get more pressing as globalization proceeds.

 

If Americans want to deliver an opinion, we don't need no stinkin' facts.

We can opine about hypotheticals, about possibilities, about generalizations, about mistakes and omissions, about any damn thing we choose.

(Your own post kind of illustrates that, no?)

Actually, I don't think that Lerner said anything radically different than what John Bear said when he defined 'GAAP' in his books. Admissions officers and other evaluators do depend on reference books. If a particular school appears in one or more of those widely used references, then it's widely accepted as RA-equivalent.

At least here on Degreeinfo, and perhaps more widely, the UNESCO listing/IHU (I'm still a little unclear about that), has come under a cloud because of problem cases like Berne.

But I expect that the thing is still used by many people out there, just as it was when it was included in the definition of 'GAAP'.

I'm not sure if there's any big problem with using it either, so long as inquirers stick to countries whose higher education systems are reliable. The reference could give readers a good idea what's included in those systems and what isn't.

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree. What Learner said is that a specific NACES evaluator used the UNESCO text as the exclusive tool in his evaluation of a non-US degree as being RA equivalent. As I stated in my earlier post, if the evaluator used the UNESCO text as one of many tools in the effort to determine equivalency then I would have no problem at all. If, however, opening the UNESCO text is the sole method used to determine RA equivalency then I have a bit of a problem. If nothing else, why would I pay someone to simply open a book and check to see if a school was listed. What would that be worth?
Jack

 

When I posted I was surprised that the UNESCO publication at all.

If its not relible than why quote that the school is listed there.

On Monday eve after work I will publish the report word by word.

 

Which is all I ever asked for... schmuck that I apparently am.

 

well not really

You asked for a lot of info, agency, the report etc.
when I provided a little more info you went on acusations and used very unplesant lingo.

Bill is corrrect by writing:

Admissions officers and other evaluators do depend on reference books. If a particular school appears in one or more of those widely used references, then it's wihe dely accepted as RA-equivalent.

At least here on Degreeinfo, and perhaps more widely, the UNESCO listing/IHU (I'm still a little unclear about that), has come under a cloud because of problem cases like Berne.


I also remember that UNESCO publucation refused to list SRU
and other related mills.

 

MANY MANY MANY evaluation companies and Universities and collages use the UNESCO/IHU database, they also know for the most part what schools are or are not legitimate when it comes to the database. If ever attend an AACRAO or NAFSA convention you know this. On the other hand, it always amazes me that many University employee's really don't know what a mill is or how to identify it.

 

ERES EducationalRecords Evaluation Service

Ref. No 03-090XX

Certification of Education Equivalency

Purpose of Evaluation

XXXXX XXXXXXXXXX submited educational records from Russia for evaluation to determine the educational equivalency in the United States for the purpose of professional employment.

Summary of Education

Mr. XXXXXXXXXXX (DOB November 12, 1965) attended Leningrad Agricultural Institute specialty of Veterinary Medicine from 1983 to 1988 and earned the title of Veterinary Doctor.
The program is university -level. Based on information provided by E. Popovych in" A Pier World Education Series Special Report on USSR," published in 1992 we have determined that this diploma is equivalent to first professional university degree in Veterinary Medicine in the United States.

Status of Institution

Leningrad Agricultural Institute is internationally recognized as degree granting institution of higher education listed in the International Handbook of Universities, 12th Edition, published by International Association of Universities, 1991. Degrees and course work from this institution are generally accepted by regionally accredited institutions of higher education in the United States.

Documentation

As evidence of his academic achievements, Mr. XXXXXXX submited his original diploma and transcripts. We have examined the documents carefully and have no reason to doubt its accuracy

Summary and Conclusions

Based on our review of the documents submitted to us and the references previously cited, we certify that XXXXX XXXXXXXXX
has earned a degree in 1988, which is equivalent to a first professional university degree in Veterinary Medicine in the United States.

Certified by XXXXXXXXXXX
Assistant Director/evaluator

September 21, 2003


Executive Director




This evaluation is advisory in nature and subject to the policies of the agency using it