Moved question regarding associates of "applied" arts N science degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Jodokk, May 6, 2005.

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  1. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    I moved this question over this way because I didn't feel it would be answered, as it was thrown in amongst other subject matter, but I really want to know... so,

    The Local Community College here in town is accredited by SACS but they offer the prestegious Associates of "Applied" Science degree. NOW, is this degree regulated at all by SACS or typically only by the appropriate technical or business accreditor?

    How 'bout those certificates and diplomas?

    If this accreditor is recognized by the USDOE, great! But if it isn't, does that make the institution a little "millish"?

    Let's say that if I required the same core curriculum that, say, cosc requires, all available by testing... and then created a 30 credit curriculum in Monkey Fighting with enough of an actual education to make one a first class monkey trainer, fight promoter, and keeper for monkey battle, and then awarded an associates of applied science degree... Am I a mill?
     
  2. RXI

    RXI New Member

    Associate of Applied Science

    Jodokk,

    Most Community or Junior College programs in the United States offer 4 varieties of Associate degrees, not all but most. These degrees are the Associate of Arts, the Associate of Science, the Associate of Applied Science and the Associate of Liberal Arts (sometimes called Gerenal Studies or Liberal Studies). The basic differences are the core requirements and the electives one can take. The Applied Science or Liberal Arts degrees have fewer basic core requirements and allows for more free electives. The Applied Science degree works very well for people who are studying technical fields, such as electronics or computer science, or Allied Health careers.

    The problem when transferring these degrees to a higher institution is one will probably need to make up some of those core requirements and one will find they may have extra electives that may be unnecessary or not usable for the higher degree but it can be done.

    This information should be in any community college handbook.

    RXI
     
  3. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    What RXI wrote is basically accurate, except where s/he used the word "core," I would have used the phrase "general education." When most people think of a degree's "core," they think of the coursework that distinguishes that degree from others by its concentration in the specific area captioned in the degree's title. "General Education" requirements, on the other hand, are the 30 or so -- to, sometimes, as many as 39 -- hours of coursework in subject areas that may or may not have anything to do with the subject that is the title of the degree.

    For example, an Associate of Arts in Underwater Basketweaving (or an Associate of Science... if that happens to be the way the college/university decided to title it) would be a sixty-hour, two-year degree. But only approximately 21 to maybe 30 hours of the aforementioned 60 hours would be in subjects that actually have anything to do with underwater basketweaving. Most people would refer to those hours as the degree's "core" coursework.

    The remaining 30 to 39 hours (and, actually, the one's you'd probably take first) would be in things like math, English (writing, literature and literacy), biology, fine arts, humanities, physical sciences, social sciences, economics, government, civics, etc. Those courses would be considered the degree's "general education" requirements.

    The primary thing that differentiates an "Associate of Science" (AS) from an "Associate of Applied Science" (AAS) is the amount of "general education" coursework. The AAS requires less of it -- often much less... about half as much, actually. Where a typical AA has 30 or so hours of "general education" coursework, an AAS has maybe 15 hours... 20, at the most. As RXI correctly pointed-out, this leaves a great deal more of the remaining 40 to 45 (out of 60) hours for "core" or elective courses.

    It is the fact that an AAS gives short shrift to the general education coursework that makes it unattractive to bachelors programs as a transferrable associates degree. But that doesn't mean that an AAS from an accredited college/university cannot be transferred at all into an accredited bachelors program. Typically, at least 45 hours of an AAS -- and sometimes even all 60 of its hours -- can be transferred into a 120-hour bachelors program, leaving from 60 to 75 hours, after the AAS's hours, remaining to be completed in order to obtain said bachelors degree.

    The problem -- and, ostensibly, the reason that people say that an AAS can't be transferred into a bachelors program -- is because it can't be transferred as a full associates degree, not because none of its credit hours can't be transferred. Normally, a 60-hour Associate of Science degree can be transferred as a complete 60-hour entity straight into the 120-hour bachelors program; and, by so doing, satisfying the bachelors program's general educational requirements as well as many of its electives... leaving only 60 hours of coursework more or less directly related to the subject entitled in the bachelor's degree's name. But a sixty-hour AAS degree will by short by 10 to 15 hours in the "general education" area, leaving 15 to 20 hours of general educational coursework needing to be satisfied before the bachelors degree may be granted; and, therefore, making it so that the normally 120-hour bachelors could, conceivably, end-up being a 135- to 140-hour degree.

    I covered this in rather painstaking, anally-retentive detail in two consecutive posts in another thread, which may be seen by clicking here.

    The AAS would be "regulated," to use your word, by SACS just the same as the AA or AS would be.

    Them, too.

    SACS is one of the U.S.'s six "regional" accreditors which are approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and its Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). Ain't nothin' "millish" about any institution accredited by SACS -- that is, assuming said institution isn't about to lose its SACS accreditation because, for example, it's become a mill.

    And -- and, of course, this is a bone of centention around here, but here's my opinion on it -- even if it weren't SACS accredited, that wouldn't necessarily make it "millish." There are other USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditors of both the "national" and "specialize/professional" variety that, in my opinion, are just as credible as any of the regional accreditors... at least for the most part; and, moreover, there are many completely unaccredited institutions (well... if not many, then several, at least) that are credible and are, by no stretch of the imagination, diploma and/or degree mills.

    Ahhh. So, then... now we finally get to the real point of your posting...

    First of all, assuming you're misusing the word "core" in the same manner that I contend RXI did, as I described above; and, therefore, assuming you actually mean "the same general education curriculum that, say, COSC requires... all available by CLEP, DANTES and/or Excelsior testing," then, at 30 hours, you would actually be requiring too much general education for a mere AAS degree. If you're going to require 30 hours of the same kind of general education coursework that COSC requires, then you'd be able to offer the AS degree... which is better. On the other hand, if you were intend on offering the AAS degree, then you'd be able to pare that 30 hours down to 15... which would let you offer even more -- 15 hours more, to be precise -- monkey fighting coursework!

    Second of all, if you, personally, were awarding any degree, I'd say it's more likely that you'd be a mill, almost no matter what you offered... and that's not an indictment of you, personally, but, rather, of the notion that anything other than a proper corporate entity -- with all appropriate licensing and degree-granting authorization (and, hopefully, USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditation, too) -- should ever be doing so.

    So, let's eliminate you, personally, from the picture... and let me answer your "mill" question in another way: If you're asking if an incorporated (be it for-profit or non-profit) business entity applied for and received all appropriate business licenses and tax paperwork; and applied for and received degree-granting authority from its state; and, assuming that you're misuing the word "core" in the same way that I said RXI did, above, and, therefore, you actually mean the same 30 hours of "general education" coursework that COSC requires (all available via CLEP, DANTES or Excelsior testing); then, assuming that the monkey fighting coursework were rigorous and of the same caliber of other accredited courses; and also assuming that there really is enough about monkey fighting that can even be taught or learned to meaningfully occupy 30 semester hours of coursework, then, no, that entity wouldn't be a "mill" for having awarded either an AAS or an AS degree for it.

    If I'm wrong about this, then please forgive me... but the way you formed the final question -- and laid the groundwork with the ones before it -- strikes me as a back-handed way of questioning regional accreditation, like those who love unaccredited institutions and who, therefore, try to tear down regionally-accredited institutions by citing the "big three" as somehow substandard often do. Framed as you tried to frame it, I can see how someone who doesn't understand how it all works -- or who hopes the reader won't understand -- could either be misled or could mislead. That's why my answer contains so many conditions. It can't be boiled-down in the way you tried to reduce it.

    But, again... if I've misread you and, in fact, you weren't trying to be a bit of a troll, then I apologize in advance for reading too much into your thread-starting post here.
     
  4. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Very Helpful

    Hi,

    No, I found your post (as I find most of your posts) very helpful! As a COSC grad I am, obviously, familiar with the general ed requirements and I use "core" semantically as a term for the same thing. Sorry.

    My inquiry was really more practical than it seemed. I am playing with the idea of starting a small post-secondary school. But, I don't want to and will not become a diploma mill. The rigor of our degree, if found to be at variance with other programs, would be set to a higher level than many existent accredited (CHEA recognized acc.) career schools. The General education requirements would be met by testing, the core martial arts curriculum by on campus work and the concentration section (18 credits), via distance learning (DETC-like, with required proctors etc.).

    Lately, in the martial arts, there have been several attempts at standardizing business methodology and physical training techniques. (For instance, one national organization has developed a curriculum for instructors through Cooper Clinic.)
    With the advent of Bridgeport's BA in Martial Arts, it would seem to be time for an institution that could offer an entry level certification or degree in Martial Arts Business, or Martial Arts Philosophy.

    Certainly there are a plethora of fake degree holders and other such nonesense in the martial arts today. A legitimate institution may help the situation.

    This may also push me into the Doctor of Sports Management program at the USSA. ( www.ussa.edu ) The idea would seem to be a pretty good dissertation topic.
    I have plenty of master’s level faculty, the majority of whom would be willing to help with the start-up pro bono. Obviously, a regional accreditor wouldn't touch us with a ten foot pole because they will require a master's with 18 hours in the subject and to teach a class in the American History of Indonesian Silat or the Impact of WWII on the Asian Martial Arts. Do you think that a masters in History would be in order? And a masters in the Humanities (like the CSUHUX program) for philosophical courses?

    Here's my thing...
    I have researched accreditation information from ACICS and COE which seem to be the best bet for this kind of program. However, a school, unless it is already accredited (and that term will always mean "by an accreditor recognized by the USDOE" when used by me), must be in operation for at least a year. During that year, under what auspices must they operate in North Carolina. I cannot seem to find information about state licensing in North Carolina and how does one operate under the Catch-22 situation of having to be state recognized for accreditation, and yet accredited for state licensing? Can an institution call their degree, a degree? Their certificate, a certificate? Until the accreditation is gained, without falling to the degree or diploma mill morass?

    Hell, if the ACICS will do this... http://www.progolfed.com/
    How can a legit Martial Arts-oriented college be denied?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2005
  5. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Very Helpful

    Music to most around here's ears, I'm sure. :)

    Bridgeport's program would appear to be regionally-accredited; and Bridgeport's obviously been around a while and has mature programs, money, etc. That being the case, wouldn't Bridgeport be able to fulfill that niche almost on a whim, if it wanted to? Just askin'

    If not, then maybe you should do like Ashworth: AS and AA, and then MA and MS, leaving BA/BS to someone else... in this case, I would think, that would be Bridgeport?

    Like the world of hypnosis/hypnotherapy... on both counts.

    Indeed! You should do it.

    That would certainly help!

    Someone like Rich Douglas might be better at answering questions like that. I don't know how the umbrella works with regional accreditation. I will say, however, that I'm not sure, as specialized as your program will be, that you should even desire regional accreditation. National accreditation, it seems to me, would do just fine. And DETC or ACICS would, it seems to me, be your two choices, in that regard.

    COE, just so I'm clear, being the "Council on Occupational Education" -- the one that's approved by USDE, but not CHEA, right? (Just makin' sure we're on the same page, here.)

    See North Carolina General Statutes, Chapter 116: Higher Education, Section § 116-15: Licensing of certain nonpublic, post-secondary educational institutions, paragrph (i), to wit:
    • Section § 116-15(i) Regulatory Authority in the Board: The Board shall have authority to establish such rules, regulations, and procedures as it may deem necessary or appropriate to effect the provisions of this section. Such rules, regulations, and procedures may include provision for the granting of an interim permit to conduct post-secondary degree activity in this State to an institution seeking licensure but lacking the two-year period of activity prescribed by subsection (f)(2), above.
    My take on the entire Section § 116-15 is that you can, in fact, call your degree a "degree;" and your certificate a "certificate," during the time that you're operating while waiting to have been in business long enough to get accredited without, as you put it, "falling [in]to the degree or diploma mill morass." I would think this would be especially true if you put right into your corporate charter that the school must dissolve if it has not, within a certain period, obtained accreditation by an agency approved by USDE and/or CHEA, so that state authorities could see that you're deadly serious and are clearly not intending to become some kind of substandard operation.

    So, if I'm reading the statute correctly, you can start up (with special dispensation from "The Board," of course) and run for a while while you are in operation long enough to seek USDE/CHEA-approved accreditation.

    Excellent point!
     
  6. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    Extremely Helpful

    >Bridgeport's program would appear to be regionally-accredited; and Bridgeport's obviously been around a while and has mature programs, money, etc. That being the case, wouldn't Bridgeport be able to fulfill that niche almost on a whim, if it wanted to? Just askin'<

    Yes, you are certainly correct, they are established and very well funded. We could never compete. However, due to their ownership (I believe that they are owned by the Unification Church), they may have difficulty enrolling the niche we hope to serve. My feeling (and only a feeling) is that although they offer Judo, Tijiquan and Taekwondo concentrations, they have a ulterior plan for the propagation of Korean martial arts.

    That, and there are no options for martial arts business programs.

    I am certainly considering that Sports doctorate. But I have to finish my MFA first. other faculty (so far) will have master's degrees in Communications, Philosophy, History, Business and Biology.

    >National accreditation, it seems to me, would do just fine. And DETC or ACICS would, it seems to me, be your two choices, in that regard.<

    I agree completely. As ancy as I get thinking about that RA status!


    >COE, just so I'm clear, being the "Council on Occupational Education" -- the one that's approved by USDE, but not CHEA, right? (Just makin' sure we're on the same page, here.)<

    Actually, I found them on the CHEA website search tool. I believe they are approved by them. If not, they are listed.

    >Section § 116-15(i) Regulatory Authority in the Board: The Board shall have authority to establish such rules, regulations, and procedures as it may deem necessary or appropriate to effect the provisions of this section. Such rules, regulations, and procedures may include provision for the granting of an interim permit to conduct post-secondary degree activity in this State to an institution seeking licensure but lacking the two-year period of activity prescribed by subsection (f)(2), above.<

    WOW! Now that's the kind of help that I get on this forum that is worth a million bucks. Thank you so very much!

    Dan B
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2005
  7. RobbCD

    RobbCD New Member

    Not just seems, is

    University of Bridgeport is regionally accredited. When the school got into financial troubles some time back the UC bought the school, execpt for the the UofB school of law, which moved up the Merrit Parkway to Quinipiac University. The BA in MA program is all residential, no DL.

    Good luck with your school, Jodokk.

    Gregg, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
     

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