Once and for all: GRADUATE THEOLOGICAL FOUNDATION

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by DesElms, Apr 3, 2005.

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  1. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    In the days since I posted about it over in this thread, I've really been thinking about the beleaguered (at least around here) Graduate Theological Foundation. I'd always known about it, of course -- after all, it's just 45 miles East of where I grew up; and South Bend, generally is part of my old stomping grounds -- but I somehow missed this august body's opinion thereof. The aforementioned thread made me use the search feature here and I came-up with these results, generally...

    ...but of greatest interest to me among the posts contained therein were this thoughtful and compelling one, and another similar, and yet another, by Steve Levicoff (and Bill Grover's response to that last one); and this one and this one by Brad Boydston; and this response by Tom Head; and this one and this one by Cory Siebel... and all the other posts in that same thread which seemed to suggest that GTF's only association with Oxford is that it rented a hall on its campus, just like anyone would or could for a wedding reception; and this cogent commentary by Bill Dayson, and this proof of his keen observational skills; and, of course, the implied and unwritten, but nevertheless certain, meaning of Janko's completely appropriate, under the circumstances, not-so-complimentary one-liners about GTF in many of the threads in which it's discussed.

    And I am, in a word, disheartened.

    Not a one of the things written in the above-quoted posts was without merit and validity. And, worse, they were written, to the last of them, by people whose opinions, here, I really respect. I'm sad that people who do a search here on GTF find such comments; and I'm disappointed that the factual statements in most or all of them are essentially true... albeit dated, in many cases.

    These feelings on my part stem from the fact that I either know, or know of, people out there in the world with some darned important and impressive positions in counseling, or in the church, or in academia, who proudly list their GTF credentials alongside some of the most impressive certificates and degrees from other well-known institutions that anyone could ever imagine. I had always considered GTF one of the good guys.

    What really got me concerned, though, was when I stumbled onto a couple (and there appear to be many more) of "high-rollers" in my own church (ELCA) who have, as their highest credential, a D.Min. from GTF, to wit: A professor at the ELCA's prestigious Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Ohio; and, also, one of the ELCA's 65 synodical bishops... among the highest positions in the church. With those two, I went from disheartened to distressed.

    So I did a little research -- with which I'm, by no means, finished, by the way -- which seems to suggest that maybe (and the operative word, here, is "maybe") GTF deserves a bit of a break from us around here. Maybe I'm wrong... but please work with me, here, for a moment...

    Few are more supportive of the general anti-unaccredited-institutions movement around here than am I; and I agree that GTF would appear to have really stepped in it in terms of such things as its ridiculously stupid (previous) alignment with a worthless accreditor, or the photographic "creativity" on its web site, just to name two of its apparent prior indiscretions. But from what I can see, neither of those things are true about GTF anymore; nor have they been for some time now, as nearly as I can tell. So the question becomes, perhaps: Were those transgressions which just happen to be the sort of foolishness in which degree- and diploma-mills typically engage -- but which, in GTF's case, appear to have been more along the lines of ill-advised embellishment rather than intentionally misleading in any real or practical way -- the sort of thing that just cannot, no matter what, ever be forgiven?

    And before anyone answers that, I think its worthwhile for said answers to be tempered by the following:

    Firstly, as for the Oxford connection, I'm unable to find, even in old GTF literature, an explicit claim of official institutional connectedness between GTF and Oxford. What I find, instead, is an unapologetic attempt by GTF to ride a bit on the coattails of the Oxford name, by pure power of suggestion, as a bit of a slimy marketing ploy which I am just not convinced rises to the level of dishonesty, or evidences an inherent lack of integrity, on GTF's part. That said, I agree that it would be better if GTF were a little less... well... intentionally obvious about it.

    However, unofficial at the institutional level though it may be, there is a bona fide Oxford connection that is far from being merely the result of someone from GTF going over to London and renting-out a hall on the Oxford campus and, therein, conducting a seminar. In fact, searching on the Oxford website yields links to pages listing several GTF faculty who teach real Oxford coursework-for-credit in summer session intensives there... which, if you read carefully what the GTF web site says about Oxford, is pretty much all GTF has ever claimed. In essence, the GTF faculty who teach those sessions are saying to potential GTF students, "Hey, we're goin' over to London this summer to teach some intensives... why don't you come along and get some credit for it toward your degree here?" I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that.

    Secondly, I became curious about just who, out there, does have a GTF credential behind their names; and, more importantly, what have they done with it. About GTF, Levicoff wrote in his 1994 book, "Name It and Frame It," the following:
    • "They are open in noting that their D.Min. program is collegial rather than academic in its orientation, but the Ph.D. is presented as an research-based degree. However, due to its lack of accreditation and its minimal requirements, it is unlikely to qualify a person to teach at a legitimate school."
    Obviously, that ATS-accredited and regionally-accredited aforementioned Trinity Lutheran Seminary is "legitimate." So, at how many other legitimate institutions or organizations, I wondered, would we find GTF graduates doing impressive and legitimate things if we just went out and looked for 'em a bit?

    The following is only a partial list which I'm quite certin I could make much longer if I just had the time. It specifically doesn't include anything from this web page, and it also doesn't include any listings of people who are on GTF staff as referenced on other web sites' pages... but at least it gives us a place to begin:
    • ST. MARY OF THE WOODS COLLEGE

      Mary Lucille Milano
      Professor of Theology
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      J.D., Northern Illinois University, College of Law
      M.Div., McCormick Theological Seminary

      Ann Sullivan
      Director of the White Violet Center for Eco-Justice
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation

      Virginia Unverzagt
      Director of the Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology Program
      Assistant Professor of Theology
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.A.P.T., Saint Mary-of-the-Woods College, 1988



      ASSOCIATED MENNONITE BIBLICAL SEMINARY

      Marlene Kropf
      Associate Professor in Spiritual Formation and Worship
      B.A., Oregon College of Education
      M.A., Oregon College of Education
      M.Div., Goshen Biblical Seminary
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      OBLATE SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY

      Sr. Theresa O'Toole
      Lecturer in Spirituality and Systematic Theology
      B.A., Memorial University of Newfoundland
      M.T.S., Oblate College of the Southwest
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation
    Continued in next post...
     
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

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    ...continued from previous post.

    • MOLLOY COLLEGE

      Sr. Victoria Toale
      Assistant Professor of Theological and Religious Studies
      B.A., Molloy College
      M.A., Manhattan College
      M.Div., Immaculate Conception Seminary
      D. Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      SETON HALL UNIVERSITY

      Rev Donald Blumenfeld
      Director of Field Education
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation



      PACIFIC SCHOOL OF RELIGION

      James F. Lawrence
      Dean of the Swedenborgian House of Studies and
      Instructor of Swedenborgian Studies
      B.A., University of Texas
      Diploma (M.Div. equiv.), Swedenborg School of Religion
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Union (candidate)



      MILWAUKEE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING

      Paul Hudec
      Associate Professor, Program Director & Interim Director of Adult Programs
      Ph.D., Marquette University
      M.B.A., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.B.A., Marquette University
      M.A.P.S., Saint Francis Seminary
      B.A., Saint Francis De Sales College



      AUSTIN PRESBYTERIAN THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY

      Michael Jinkins
      Academic Dean and Professor of Pastoral Theology
      Ph.D.Kings College, University of Aberdeen
      D.Min. Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary
      M.Div. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
      B.A. Howard Payne University, Brownwood, Texas, 1975
      Oxford Foundation Fellowship, Graduate Theological Foundation



      LOYOLA UNIVERSITY INSITUTUE OF PASTORAL STUDIES

      Jeanette G. Egan
      Part-time faculty
      Psy.D., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.A. Adler School of Professional Psychology
      Lecturer at North Park College
      Pastoral associate in the Archdiocese of Chicago



      PFEIFFER UNIVERSITY

      Patty Meyers
      Chair of the Department of Christian Education and Youth Ministries
      Ed.D., Seattle University
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.A., Garrett-Evangelical Theological Foundation
      B.A., Coe College



      BETHEL COLLEGE AND SEMINARY

      William T. Young
      Pastoral Theology Dept
      Pastor, Formosan Reformed Church on Long Island
      BLL, National Chengchi University
      M.Div., Asbury Theological Seminary
      Th.M., D.Miss., Fuller Theological Seminary
      M.A. (Humanities), Cal State University
      M.A. (Psychology), Cal State University
      Ph.D., University of St. Thomas
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Ed.D. Columbia University (Candidate)

      Eldon Fry
      Campus Pastor & Dean of the Chapel
      B.A., Oklahoma Wesleyan University
      M.A., Kansas State University
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      NYACK COLLEGE

      Jeffrey Mackey
      Dean, College of Arts and Sciences
      BS, Nyack College
      CTS, General Theological Seminary
      DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation



      HESSTON COLLEGE

      Jeff Wright
      B.A., Tabor College
      M.Div., Mennonite Brethren Biblical Seminary
      M.B.A., Graduate Theological Foundation



      UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA

      Moria Waterbury
      Assistant Professor of Human Relations
      BA Dalhousie University
      Graduate Certificate University of Toronto
      MASW University of Oklahoma
      DMin Graduate Theological Foundation



      ST. JOSEPH'S COLLEGE OF MAINE

      Rita LaBruzzo
      Director, Institute for Pastoral Studies
      B.A., Hunter College
      M.B.A., Graduate Theological Foundation
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      CHRIST THE KING SEMINARY

      Rev. Edward J. Sheedy
      Lecturer, Sacred Scripture
      B.A., St. John Vianney Seminary
      M.A., Canisius College
      M.S., Canisius College
      Ed.D., Graduate Theological Foundation



      SAMARITAN COUNSELING CENTERS, INC.

      Suzanne M. Morris
      Executive Director/Family Therapist
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Indiana Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist
      Indiana Licensed Clinical Social Worker



      INDIANA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

      Kathleen Barlow
      Associate Professor/Communication & English/Chair Academics
      College of Professional Studies Indianapolis Campus
      B.A., Indiana Wesleyan University
      M.A., Ball State University
      Ph.D., Ball State University
      Post-Doctoral Studies: University of Notre Dame (35 semester hours in Theology)
      Diploma, Capitol Hill Staff Training, The Leadership Institute
      Diploma, Broadcast Journalism, The Leadership Institute
      Diploma, Campaign Leadership, The Leadership Institute
      D.Min, Graduate Theological Foundation (candidate)



      UNIVERSITY OF DENVER

      Claude d'Estrée
      Visiting Professor of Law - Graduate School of International Studies
      Senior Fellow - Institute on Globalization & Security
      Adjunct Professor - Sturm College of Law
      Buddhist Chaplain
      DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation (candidate)
      JD, Northeastern University School of Law
      M.T.S., Harvard University, The Divinity School
      B.A., University of Northern Colorado



      UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME

      Louise Litzinger
      Assistant Dean of the First Year of Studies Program
      DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation
      MTh, Catholic Theological Union
      MA, Valparaiso University
      BA, Ohio Dominican College



      LINCOLN MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY

      C. Ray Penn
      Program Head Communication Arts
      B.A., McKendree
      M. Div., Wesley Theological Seminary
      M.S.T. Christian Theological Seminary
      M.A., University of Illinois
      D. Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Ph.D., Northwestern University



      DEFIANCE COLLEGE

      Joan Sakos
      Part-time faculty
      B.A., LeTourneau College
      B.A., Wichita State University
      M.A., Troy State University
      M.A., Utah State University
      Ed.D., Graduate Theological Foundation (candidate)



      INDIANA UNIVERSITY

      John Redman
      McClosky Institute of Voice
      D. Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.A. Music, California State University
      B.A. Music, California State University



      SEWANEE UNIVERSITY OF THE SOUTH

      Linda A. Hutton
      Lecturer in Christian Education
      Presenter, Sexual Boundaries Seminar
      B.A., Kensington University
      M.B.A., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Dip. Adv. Theol. Study, University of the South



      LOYOLA COLLEGE IN MARYLAND

      Sr. Mary Ellen Merrick
      Adjunct Assistant Professor of Pastoral Counseling
      B.A., M.S., Marywood College
      M.S., C.A.S., Loyola College in Maryland
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      MANHATTANVILLE COLLEGE

      Rev. Wil Tyrrell
      Catholic Chaplin and Interfaith Coordinator, Duchesne Center
      Adjunct professor at St. Francis College in Brooklyn, New York
      B.A., SUNY
      M.A., California State University
      M.A., Fordham University
      M.Div. Catholic University
      D.Min, Graduate Theological Foundation
    Continued in next post...
     
  3. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    3 of 3

    ...continued from previous post.

    • ASSUMPTION COLLEGE

      Joseph H. Hagan
      President Emeritus
      A.B., Providence College
      Ed.M., Boston University
      M.B.A., Bryant College
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      NOTRE DAME COLLEGE

      Sr. Jacquelyn Gusdane
      Member of the Board of Directors
      BA, Notre Dame College
      MA, University of Minnesota
      MA, John Carroll University
      DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation



      WEBSTER UNIVERSITY

      Roger Rhoades
      Counseling
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.A., New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



      MADONNA UNIVERSITY

      Rev H. George Shalhoub
      Religious Studies/Pastoral Ministry
      B.S., Eastern Michigan University
      B.A., Balomond Seminary
      M.T.S., St. John's Provincial Seminary
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation

      Paul R. Bodrie
      Religious Studies & Pastoral Ministry
      A.A.M., Sacred Heart Seminary College
      B.A., Madonna College
      M.A., Marygrove College
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation

      Sr MarieAnn Stamm
      Chairperson
      Religious Studies, Pastoral Ministry, and Philosophy
      B.A., Madonna College
      M.A., University of Detroit
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      TRINITY LUTHERAN SEMINARY (ELCA)

      Walter M. Lowry
      Affiliated Professor of Ministry
      B.A., Duquesne University
      M.Div., Trinity Lutheran Seminary
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      UNIVERSITY OF FINDLAY

      Vivian Dettbarn
      Instructor of Music
      B.A., University of California
      M.A., Appalachian State University
      D.S.M., Graduate Theological Foundation



      ST. JOHN'S UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY AND SEMINARY

      Robert J. McCarty
      Faculty, Youth In Theology & Ministry; Executive Director
      for the National Federation for Catholic Youth Ministry
      M.A., LaSalle University
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      CHRISTIAN LIFE COLLEGE

      Daryl Merrill Jr.
      Part-time Faculty, Pastoral Studies
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.R.E., Cincinnati Bible Seminary
      M.A., Cincinnati Bible Seminary
      B.A., Christian Life College



      FAIRFAX UNIVERSITY

      Michael J Carr
      BA, St Joseph’s University
      MA, Villanova University
      DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation



      UNIVERSIDAD DEL SAGRADO CORAZON

      Irma Hernandez Torres
      Catedrática Asociada
      Departamento de Humanidades
      B.A., Universidad del Sagrado Corazón
      M.Ed., Boston University
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation



      UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME

      Sr. Carrine Etheridge
      Farley Hall
      B.A., Immaculata College
      M.A., Loyola University
      Psy.D., Graduate Theological Foundation



      EASTERN MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY

      Fr. Bernard J. O'Connor
      Battalion Chaplin
      Assistant Dean, College of Arts and Sciences
      J.C.D., (pending) Angelicum University
      S.T.D., Gregorian University
      J.D., University of Tennessee
      M.A., Creighton University
      S.T.L., Gregorian University
      M.C.L., University of Ottawa
      J.C.L., St. Paul University
      M.Div, St. Paul University
      S.T.B., St. Paul University
      B.A., (Hon.) St. Francis Xavier University
      Visiting Faculty, Graduate Theological Foundation
      Doctor of Humane Letters (Honoris Causa) Graduate Theological Foundation



      HAWAII PACIFIC UNIVERSITY

      Dale Burke
      University Chaplain
      Instructor of Communication
      M.Div., Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary
      D.MIN., Graduate Theological Foundation



      NORTHWESTERN COLLEGE

      Daryl Aaron
      Assistant Professor of Bible
      MacLaurin Institute Coordinator
      FOCUS Instructor
      Distance Education Instructor
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation
      D.Min.- Bethel Theological Seminary
      M.A.- University of Texas at Dallas
      Th.M.- Dallas Theological Seminary
      B.S.- LeTourneau College
      A.A.S.- Iowa State University



      RIVER COLLEGE

      Jane Dwyer
      Adjunct Faculty
      Dept of Social & Behavioral Sciences
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation
      M.Ed., Rivier College
      B.A., Notre Dame College



      SHEPHERD UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY

      William Young
      Professor of Christian Education
      B.B.S, Central Taiwan Theological College
      M.Div., Ashbury Theological Seminary
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation
      Ed.D., Columbia University



      BARRY UNIVERSITY

      Sr. Sallie L. Latkovich
      Assistant Professor
      The Blessed Edmund Rice School for Pastoral Ministry
      M.A. in Theology, St. Norbert College
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation



      NORTHWESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY

      Dennis C. Tucker
      Director of Libraries
      M.S., University of Missouri-Columbia
      M.A., Southeast Missouri State University
      Ph.D., Graduate Theological Foundation (candidate)



      WESTERN IOWA SYNOD
      EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH IN AMERICA (ELCA)

      Michael A. Last
      Bishop of the Synod
      Member, Waldorf College Board of Regents
      M.Div., Northwestern Lutheran Theological Seminary
      D.Min., Graduate Theological Foundation

    And that's just from the results of a carefully-crafted Google search confined to web sites which utilize the .edu gTLD in their domain names, yielding under 175 results. The reader should bear in mind that only web sites that are search-engine-spider-friendly (which most educational institutional web sites tend not to be) would even show-up in such a search... suggesting that there are probably many more listings on the pages of even more institutional web sites out there, but which the Google spider missed because of bad HTML coding issues.

    I also specifically excluded listings contained in .PDF files, which shortened the list by another 30 to 50 names that I could have included, above, if I'd had the time and patience to open and then search through nearly three dozen large and sluggish .PDF files.

    If one searches, without restriction, on the string, "Graduate Theological Foundation" (including quotes) one gets roughly 340 more listings of all manner and type which I haven't even bothered, yet, to investigate... but I will.

    We all decry the unaccredited programs around here; and these forums are rife with posts which carefully delineate the circumstances under which even unaccredited institutions may be considered credible. Might it be time for the membership, here, to re-think its position on GTF as a purely practical matter, and based solely on where the evidence now seems to lead us, if nothing else?

    Or do we continue to deride GTF and hold it accountable for its past ill-advised marketing overzealousness... which it, to its credit, appears to have since cured several times over? Does not its performance over four decades, as a practical matter, and in the real world; as well as the obviously high regard for its credentials that academia and the church would appear to have for it, speak more to its relative credibility now than do its indiscretions of the past? Given the subject matter of its teachings, should not, now, finally, its past injudiciousness be met here with a bit of grace?

    Just askin'
     
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't think that the board has ever taken a single position on GTF (or on much of anything, for that matter).

    My own views are probably best expressed in this post:

    http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=122748

    I'm inclined to think that it might be one of the more credible non-accredited schools out there, at least superficially, but I really wish that it would lose the funny stuff.

    I don't really see any reason to change that opinion.

    I don't deride it.

    But unfortunately, now that it's moved its address from Donaldson to South Bend, GTF graduates are busy pretending that GTF is the Graduate Theological Foundation of Notre Dame University.

    See here,here and here.

    And there are still webpages out there saying that its Graduate Theological Foundation of Oxford University. See here.

    Admittedly this is something that the graduates and their publicists seem to be doing, not the school itself. I'm not going to damn the school for it, but I don't like it either.
     
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    This is just a caution.

    Anyone who knows anything about my theology knows that I am not a fundamentalist nor very sympathetic to the fundamentalist subculture. That subculture is also subject to certain stereotypes and caricatures, to which the subculture of liberal theological institutions, such as most of those listed by Gregg, is not subject. My theological criticism of theologically liberal institutions is if possible even stronger than my criticism of fundamentalism, but I don't find such institutions culturally alien. A greater degree (sic) of cultural comfort for an observer of an institution does not make an institution more--or less!--substantive.

    Here is my caution: just because these persons are teaching at institutions many do not find culturally risible does not make GTF worthwhile (or the opposite).

    As for the ELCA bishop with the credential from GTF, there was until recently a similar personage in the LCMS who claimed a degree from--wait for it--Glencullen. Now I am very definitely not equating GTF and Glencullen, but drawing a parallel caution that one ought not think princes of the church in culturally respectable denominations are necessarily any more free from the temptation to um enhance their penumbra with less than wonderful stuff than the clergy of less prestigious groups.

    Does this speak to the inherent merit or lack of it of GTF? No. Its marketing ploys are more tasteful than those of, say, Trinity Newburgh. (I think we can all agree that both schools require substantial work from their students at the present time.) Whether that aesthetic superiority reflects greater institutional integrity remains to be seen.

    Why not "reopen" the discussion? We might find some good stuff. Or we might not. No harm in looking, none at all.
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    William Carlos Williams looks at the GFT website

    What a pompous website.
    "Consultative ecclesial bodies."

    Portentous denom list.
    What, no Ismailis?

    Lovely pix from South Bend.
    Yes, the pix is real.
    I went and looked.

    More later. Stay tuned.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    For reasons most should understand, I won't mention any names.

    I am required by my state to undergo 40 hours of continuing education units every two years to maintain my counseling licenses.

    One institution I regularly attend every month for one CEU per attendance is a mental health hospital.

    One of the clinicians recently graduated from GTF with a D.Min. in Marriage and Family Counseling.

    His dissertation was on child sexual abuse. He presented a summary at this institution. I have attended a number of seminars, workshops, lectures and have taken numerous courses on this topic.

    I was thoroughly impressed with his presentation and have since read his dissertation. It is exceptional and contributes greatly to the field.

    This person was promoted to head the counseling department at this institution and requests for presentations of his dissertation research are overwhelming. This person cannot meet all the demands.

    I will add, however, what I have said ever since I came to this forum, that it is not so much the school but the person earning the degree and what he or she has put into it.

    I have seen shoddy dissertations on therapeutic topics from some of the most respected institutions but again, it's not so much a reflection on the school as it is on the student.
     
  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Pardon me for asking, but precisely what is "not so much?"
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: William Carlos Williams looks at the GFT website

    This individual from Greg's list has me kind of confused:

    UNIVERSITY OF DENVER
    Claude d'Estrée
    Visiting Professor of Law - Graduate School of International Studies
    Senior Fellow - Institute on Globalization & Security
    Adjunct Professor - Sturm College of Law
    Buddhist Chaplain
    DMin, Graduate Theological Foundation (candidate)
    JD, Northeastern University School of Law
    M.T.S., Harvard University, The Divinity School
    B.A., University of Northern Colorado


    OK, I guess that the J.D. covers the visiting professor of law part.

    But what's with the 'Buddhist Chaplain' bit? If this guy had studied Buddhism at Harvard, his masters degree presumably would be an A.M. in the Study of Religion from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, not an M.T.S. from the Divinity School. What's more, GTF doesn't seem to pay very much attention to Buddhism either. So this guy's religious education doesn't seem entirely consistent with his religious vocation.

    I gather that the Tower Building is owned by an architectural firm and also houses a number of legal and business services firms. GTF says that they occupy 'Suite 300'. I wonder what that actually consists of.

    Of course, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with renting space. In San Francisco, CIIS leases several floors (nicely remodeled) of a rather drab office building.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think it's pretty self-explanatory, Gus, it has to do with correlation regarding literally hundreds of posts about the quality of a school depending strictly on accreditation.
     
  11. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    I don't understand, Jimmy.

    You said, "it is not so much the school but the person earning the degree and what he or she has put into it." I asked what, precisely, was "not so much."

    You now say that you were referring to the quality of a school not being strictly dependent on accreditation. I, for one, especially in light of the fact that you are touting your comment as “self-explanatory” find this to be a strange explanation, as I am not sure how the quality of a school is, “not so much the school.” Moreover, I don’t see how the quality of a school is dependent on a single person or “what he or she has put into it."

    Could you have meant that there is not much of a correlation between a school and quality of education? Or did you mean instead that there is no correlation between a school and the value of the degree it confers? Could either of these things (and they are not the same) be what you meant, Jimmy? Because if you had been referring to the quality of an education or the value of a degree being “not so much the school but the person earning the degree and what he or she has put into it," then there would have been much to discuss.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think this is fairly close to what I was trying to convey. My comments were based on all the prior discussions regarding accredited and unaccredited schools. I guess I just felt everyone knew what I meant because the GTF disucssions in the past have been linked to a general thought on there, I personally sensed, that an unaccredited school cannot produce quality work or graduates who are outstanding in a particular academic field.

    If I have misread or misinterpreted all those remarks, comments, and posts, I apologize.
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't recall anyone saying that, whether about GTF in particular or about non-accredited schools in general.

    I've said repeatedly (in hundreds of posts) that good work can occasionally come out of non-accredited schools and that they might be good choices for certain students in certain situations.

    I've also said that there is evidence that GTF might be one of those valuable non-accredited schools. My criticism of GTF has been more concerned with ethical issues
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2005
  14. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Thanks for the clarification, Jimmy. However, I don’t recall anyone eloquently expressing or subscribing to the viewpoint “that an unaccredited school cannot produce quality work or graduates who are outstanding in a particular academic field.” Outstanding work and achievement can certainly be done at an unaccredited school, particularly as it can also be done outside of an academic setting. Let us not confuse, however, the work done or the education garnered with a degree’s legitimacy and utility; they are not one and the same.

    I ask for clarification so that your comments could not be looked upon by those espousing the ludicrous position that outstanding work on the part of one or two individuals automatically confers legitimacy upon an institution and all the degrees it confers (regardless of the reputation or past activities of that institution and the minimum amount of work required of other students) as being supportive of their position. After all, doesn’t every holder of a degree mill credential, when exposed, claim to have done a lot of work for his or her degree? Don’t they all claim that the quality of the work was commensurate the degree awarded, and that they were “entitled” to the credential because their particular circumstances were unique?

    No amount of work, no achievement on the part of an individual, can render a degree conferred by a diploma mill legitimate. For example, you may receive a Nobel Prize for the work you submit to the likes of a James Monroe University, Athenaeum University International, or American Coastline University, but that still won’t make a degree you receive from any of these entities legitimate; it will always be a degree mill credential.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Gus, I probably agree with most of what you said. I think there was some general feeling by some on here that people who attended or attend unaccredited schools do so to get an easy degree.

    I think there are some who do real, intense, scholarly work and put forth great effort and determination in earning an unaccredited degree.

    I just don't recall this every being acknowledged. I may be wrong and if I am, I stand corrected.

     
  16. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    However, this may very well be true, Jimmy. You know full well that, although you may be the kind of individual that always exceeds what is required, most people aren't. Don’t confused the effort you are willing to put out with what is actually required.

    I agree. However, I am generally of the opinion that this kind of individual would have been, more than likely, better served by doing this "real, intense, scholarly work" and putting forth this "great effort and determination" at an accredited institution. The degree earned would certainly have more utility.

    Let's face it, if degrees from unaccredited schools aren't really easier to earn (not based on any one individual's personal effort, but instead on a school's minimum requirements), then you remove one of the more compelling reasons to enroll in the vast majority of these institutions.

    Once again, Jimmy, don't confuse a single individual's determination and effort, with what the institution actually requires. It could be that your personal work ethic may be clouding your viewpoint. ;)
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Perhaps but here is something interesting. I put forth more effort at Bethany (UA) than I did at Delta State, ESR (ATS), or Augusta College, all RA. Maybe being older at the time of Bethany was the reason.

    I am putting forth great effort at FLET and did so at CCHS.

    Thanks for the discussion and an opportunity to be more clear.
     
  18. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    And the subject is...

    Okay... so... then.... back to GTF...
     
  19. boydston

    boydston New Member

    Re: And the subject is...

    Gregg came up with many more faculty listings than I had come up with in my google searches a few months ago. I'm thinking that he should offer a class in googling -- by DL, of course. :)

    However, most of the faculty members listed were in the "soft areas" -- that is, pastoral ministry, field education, etc. There are many such faculty members filling similar slots who have less than doctorates anyway.

    There are exceptions and they are probably there because of the strength of their other work combined with their GTF degree. This is not to belittle GTF. As I've said before, there are some very impressive people associated with them (graduates and faculty) and they have a track-record. But their lack of accreditation makes them suspect. Even if their original charter somehow prohibits them from seeking ATS accreditation there are several other options which would suit them just fine. However, I’m guessing that they have plenty of customers without having to jump through accreditation hoops.

    I suspect, too, that the barriers which in the past made them unaccreditable to the RA people are quickly falling. (If GTF would quit adding more and more degrees... On the surface it seems to be too much for the support and infrastructure of the school). All schools have their quirks and idiosyncrasies – things which we’d prefer they’d do differently. With these guys it is their institutionalized resistence to accreditation. Some schools dis accreditation because they can’t attain it. With this school I understand that there were some philosophical issues with ATS in their early days. And those issues have become a part of the corporate culture.

    If there was someone at GTF that I wanted to study with I wouldn't hesitate to study with them. Of course, I'm not interesting in pursuing a career in academics either. But the cost is reasonable and the format is accessible. The fact that these guys got their start in the 60's tells us that they have been ahead of the wave and I'm sure, as with all innovators, they've taken the flak for their approach. But I think time is vindicating them -- or at least their relatively open approach.

    I’m thinking that we can expect to see the rise of a some American theological institutions which have credible faculties, open admission, and dispersed/online residencies which are regionally accredited (similar to what South African Theological Seminary is providing for SA and what Capella and NCU are doing in the secular realm). This competition may eventually force GTF to tighten things up.
     
  20. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    Re: Re: William Carlos Williams looks at the GFT website

    Not necessarily, Bill.

    The Harvard M.T.S. is an academic rather than a professional degree in religious studies. The catalog states that it is equivalent to the A.M. (although it requires more semester hours). Unlike the A.M., however, it is a stand-alone program. In GSAS, unless the rules have changed, one cannot obtain the A.M. in religious studies without having been accepted into the doctoral program at GSAS.

    Furthermore, the M.T.S. is pretty open ended. Though most of the coursework available is in the Judeo-Christian tradition, it would certainly be possible to take courses in Asian religions, including Buddhism, while in the M.T.S. program, both at the Divinity School and through GSAS. One of my courses was in Iranian Religions, for instance.

    I don't know what the requirements are for a "Buddhist Chaplain" but I don't think that the M.T.S. rather than the A.M. credential is an indicator of insufficient training in Buddhist thought.

    marilynd
     

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