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  1. #1
    paula is offline Registered User
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    SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY

    COULD ANYONE WITH ANY INFORMATION ABOUT "SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY" PLEASE RESPOND? I AM TRYING TO DO RESEARCH ON THIS UNIVERSITY WHICH I WAS TOLD WAS IN PASADENA, CA, BUT I CAN FIND NO RECORD OF IT ANYWHERE, W/THE EXCEPTION OF BLOGS. INTERESTINGLY IT IS NOT LISTED ON THE ACCREDITED POST SECONDARY EDUCATION LIST. THANK YOU.
    Last edited by paula; 03-21-2005 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Please toggle the CAPSLOCK key.

    Regarding Southland, you will not see it on any list of accredited schools because it wasn't ever accredited. In fact, it was never even California-Approved.

    Southland was opened under the very liberal California-Authorized rules, which allowed anyone to start a university by filling out some forms and declaring some assets. One of the founders claimed a law degree from the University of San Gabriel Valley, a school about which very little is/was known.

    Southland was shut down in the early 80's by the authorities. Its founder later turned up running a diploma mill (LaSalle) in Louisiana, then later from prison.

    The most thorough information about Southland is available from Bear's (and Bears') Guides. John Bear--and John and Mariah Bear--are the authors.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    Southland, founded and run by James Kirk (later known as Thomas McPherson), operated under California's very lenient state-authorization rules, and actually qualified its graduates to take the Bar exam. While the pass rate was low, there are more than a dozen lawyers in California who are alumni of Southland.

    They were never shut down by anyone. When California laws got tougher, they moved to Arizona. The FBI raided them, but no indictments were ever handed down. When Arizona laws got tougher, Kirk/McPherson moved to Missouri and started LaSalle, using the Southland model and courses. When Missouri leaned on him, he moved to Louisiana, which is where the FBI raid took place, followed by 18 indictments for various kinds of fraud, followed by a guilty plea, 4 years in a federal prison (from which Edison University, later Acton University was run), followed by various other Louisiana and Mississippi school involvements.

  4. #4
    paula is offline Registered User
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    FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS

    THANK YOU FOR THE QUICK RESPONSES! WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO GOT DEGREES FROM THERE? ARE THEY REALLY LICENSED OR DOES IT DEPEND ON WHAT STATE THEY MOVE TO AND WORK IN? DO THEY HAVE ANY RECOURSE AGAINST SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY? DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PUBLICITY SOUTHLAND RECEIVED REGARDING ACCREDITATION?

  5. #5
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    My mistake. I though the raid occured at Southland.

  6. #6
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    PAULA asks:
    THANK YOU FOR THE QUICK RESPONSES! WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO GOT DEGREES FROM THERE? ARE THEY REALLY LICENSED OR DOES IT DEPEND ON WHAT STATE THEY MOVE TO AND WORK IN?

    What kind of license are you referring to? If they have a Southland degree, then they have a degree from a school that was operating legally under California, then Arizona law.

    DO THEY HAVE ANY RECOURSE AGAINST SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY?

    For what? False accreditation claims? I doubt that Southland ever said that their accreditor was recognized by the Office or Department of Education .

    DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PUBLICITY SOUTHLAND RECEIVED REGARDING ACCREDITATION?

    I remember two page-one stories in the Pasadena newspaper on the occasion of their moving; I believe they were mentioned in the 4-day page one series on dubious schools that ran in the Arizona Republic -- and their successor, LaSalle, was page one news many times in the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

    So why are you asking?
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning,
    Degree Mills: the billion-dollar industry that has sold more than a million fake diplomas, How to Repair Food, 30+ more.
    www.johnbear.info

  7. #7
    Lerner is offline Registered User
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    Re: FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS

    Originally posted by paula
    THANK YOU FOR THE QUICK RESPONSES! WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO GOT DEGREES FROM THERE? ARE THEY REALLY LICENSED OR DOES IT DEPEND ON WHAT STATE THEY MOVE TO AND WORK IN? DO THEY HAVE ANY RECOURSE AGAINST SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY? DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PUBLICITY SOUTHLAND RECEIVED REGARDING ACCREDITATION?

    Debra A. Smith
    16801 Van Buren Boulevard
    Riverside, California 92504
    (Riverside Co.)
    Telephone: 909-780-5300

    Email: Send an Email

    Web Site: http://www.debrasmithlaw.com

    Practice Areas: Family Law; Criminal Law; Personal Injury

    Admitted: 1986, California; 1998, New Mexico

    Law School: Southland University, Los Angeles, J.D., 1985

    College: California State College, Bakersfield

    Member: Riverside County and American Bar Associations; State Bar of California (Member, Advisory Panel, Domestic Violence Committee); State Bar of New Mexico.

    Biography: Million Dollar Advocates Forum.

    Web Site: http://www.debrasmithlaw.com

    Licensed in CA - illigal in Oregon :-)

    Try to tell her that.
    Last edited by Lerner; 03-21-2005 at 08:06 PM.

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  9. #8
    Jake_A is offline Registered User
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    Informative post, Dr. Bear. Thanks.

    posted by Lerner
    ....Web Site: http://www.debrasmithlaw.com
    ....Practice Areas: Family Law; Criminal Law; Personal Injury
    ....Admitted: 1986, California; 1998, New Mexico
    ....Law School: Southland University, Los Angeles, J.D., 1985
    Over 19 years of CA Bar-admitted practice. Impressive. Give her her just due.

    posted by John Bear
    While the pass rate was low, there are more than a dozen lawyers in California who are alumni of Southland.
    Clearly, she is one of the very few Southland grads Dr. Bear cites(and probably a quite capable counsel, too).
    posted by John Bear
    ......When California laws got tougher, they (Southland's founder/s) moved to Arizona. The FBI raided them, but no indictments were ever handed down. When Arizona laws got tougher, Kirk/McPherson moved to Missouri and started LaSalle, using the Southland model and courses. When Missouri leaned on him, he moved to Louisiana, which is where the FBI raid took place, followed by 18 indictments for various kinds of fraud, followed by a guilty plea, 4 years in a federal prison (from which Edison University, later Acton University was run), followed by various other Louisiana and Mississippi school involvements.
    Lerner:

    Do any of these KWE-like, documented chameleonic escapades, law/regulation-avoiding machinations, questionable shenanigans and slippery movements by Southland's founder(s) bother you at all? (I am not intimating that it does not. Just curious).

    If so, why?

    If not, why not?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Jake_A; 03-22-2005 at 08:03 AM.
    Jake_A
    "A good name is better than riches."

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  10. #9
    paula is offline Registered User
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    SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY

    REPLY TO JOHN BEAR-
    THANKS FOR THE INFO. THE REASON THAT I AM ASKING IS BECAUSE I AM REALLY CURIOUS. I READ A STORY ON THE INTERNET WHERE MR. WONG SAID HE GOT A LAW DEGREE FROM SOUTHLAND, AND SOMEONE ELSE GOT A PSYCHOLOGY DEGREE FROM THERE, AND THEN ALSO THAT THERE WAS A THEOLOGICAL DEGREE (ALTHOUGH THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A LEGITIMATE SCHOOL- I CAN NOT RECALL.
    I WAS JUST WONDERING BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE A LAW DEGREE FROM A SCHOOL THAT IS UNACCREDITED, FOR INSTANCE SOUTHLAND, AND YOU PRACTICE IN A STATE THAT REQUIRES ACCREDITATION- ARE YOU COMMITTING "UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE OF LAW?"
    IS IT THE JOB OF THE REGULATING BOARD THAT GRANTS LICENSES TO CHECK OUT THESE THINGS? OR IS IT THE JOB OF THE APPLICANT?
    BASICALLY- I HAD NEVER READ/HEARD ABOUT THIS TYPE OF THING UNTILL THIS WEEK, AND YOU GUYS ARE EXPERTS... SO I WAS PICKING YOUR BRAINS.
    THANKS FOR YOUR HELP SO FAR.

  11. #10
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    Each state has its own rules on the matter of lawyers who passed the bar in other states (or countries). Some accept them after they have practiced in their home state for some number of years (5 to 20, I think). Others require them to take the bar in the second state. Some require just part of the bar (not the interstate portion). And some say absolutely not. 50 states, 200+ bars, thus 10,000 possible pairs of outcomes.

    One more interesting historical bit on Southland's founder. When the FBI did its first 'raid' of a diploma mill -- Southeastern University in South Carolina -- they found in the files the paperwork on a deal whereby the founder of Southland and the founder of Southeastern traded diplomas -- as I recall, a law degree for a Ph.D.

    Where is archie (or is it mehitabel; I can never remember which is which) when we need him?
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning,
    Degree Mills: the billion-dollar industry that has sold more than a million fake diplomas, How to Repair Food, 30+ more.
    www.johnbear.info

  12. #11
    Lerner is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Jake_A
    Informative post, Dr. Bear. Thanks.



    Over 19 years of CA Bar-admitted practice. Impressive. Give her her just due.



    Clearly, she is one of the very few Southland grads Dr. Bear cites(and probably a quite capable counsel, too).

    Lerner:

    Do any of these KWE-like, documented chameleonic escapades, law/regulation-avoiding machinations, questionable shenanigans and slippery movements by Southland's founder(s) bother you at all? (I am not intimating that it does not. Just curious).

    If so, why?

    If not, why not?

    Thanks.
    Lesson leaned - CA Authorized School produced graduates a person who seems to be very successful.

    It appears that Southland University provided her with education .

    As to chameleonic escapades, law/regulation-avoiding machinations, questionable shenanigans and slippery movements

    If they run a LAW school then they know how to do these things :-)

    I think of their motivation.

    It was a business that was forced out by inability or business decision not to comply with new regulations, so when things got hard they moved and then it got harder they in order to make profit and survive continued down the easy path.
    Politicians do that, Lawyers do that (not all).

    This is not a behavior one will expect or accept from a person who runs establishment of higher learning – specially LAW school.

    The Law prevailed in the end.

  13. #12
    DesElms is offline Registered User
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    Thumbs down YELLING

    Originally posted by paula
    THANKS FOR THE INFO. THE REASON THAT I AM ASKING IS...

    [...]

    ...FOR YOUR HELP SO FAR.
    Paula, I know you mean well and all, but it is widely known -- and has been so for years -- that typing in all capital letters is the equivalent of yelling. It's rude and offensive in forums, BBS's, newsgroups, chat rooms and in emails; and it's a violation of well-known "netiquette."

    In real life, you wouldn't walk into a room full of people, or a restaurant, or someplace like that and say everything you have to say while you're there in a YELL, would you? Typing in all caps, as you're doing, is the Internet equivalent of that.

    Rich mentioned it to you nicely, but you just kinda' blew right past it. Could you please, now, though, and in all your future posts, observe that time-worn rule and afford us that common courtesy? I'm not saying that all caps should never be used; all I'm saying is that it should be reserved for yelling or acronyms, etc.

    Thanks! Hope you get the information you seek...

    ...and that you're not offended that I took a moment to mention this to you.
    Gregg L. DesElms
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  14. #13
    DesElms is offline Registered User
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    Re: SOUTHLAND UNIVERSITY

    Originally posted by paula
    I was just wondering because if you have a law degree from a a school that is unaccredited, for instance Southland, and you practice in a state that requires accreditation- are you committing "Unauthorized Practice of Law?" Is it the job of the regulating board that grants licenses to check out these thing? Or is it the job of the applicant?
    Different states do things differently. In some states the supreme court decides how things will work. In others there's a special committee, panel or commission -- sometimes under the direction of the supreme court or a committee thereof, and sometimes under the authority of the bar. In still others, the bar itself controls things. It just depends. No matter what it is, in all 50 states, there's just one body or authority (per state) that makes the decisions -- or the legislature. That authority decides whether a law degree needs to be accredited, whether the bar exam is required, etc.

    Generally speaking, all Juris Doctor (J.D.) law degrees need to be from law schools approved by the American Bar Association (ABA), and all new lawyers need to pass his/her state's bar exam. Some states allow non-ABA-approved J.D. degrees as requisite to sit for the bar exam or to be admitted on motion, without exam; and, if so, it will be clearly stated in the rules.

    The state, when it receives a new attorney's application, will most likely check-out the J.D. degree and the law school that issued it. But even if it didn't, it's likely that the applicant will be asked on the application if the law school is ABA-approved -- or, more accurately, if the degree and the institution which issued it meets published state requirements -- and if s/he answers "yes" when that's not true, s/he will have lied on his/her application which, in every single state, is grounds not only to not admit the applicant, but to immediately disbar him if he's already been admitted... with no possibility of him ever being admitted again... ever.

    An attorney whose J.D. did not really meet state requirements on account of its lack of whatever accreditation the state requires, but who didn't lie about it on his application, and did whatever else the state asked him to do to qualify, and is then sworn in -- even though in error -- could not possibly be guilty of UPL. After all, he's admitted, wrongly or not. The state could (and likely would) move quicky to correct the error... most likely by revoking his bar card. Anything he did as an attorney prior to having his bar card yanked would be considered legal because he was admitted to the bar... even if wrongly... and temporarily, because of it.

    When the state moved to yank his bar card, he could argue that he didn't do anything wrong; that he merely assumed that the state's deviation from its requirement that his J.D. be accredited was because the state granted him a waiver... even if the state never really called it that or mentioned anything about it anywhere verbally or in writing. But even that probably wouldn't fly, and the next paragraph explains why...

    It's unlikely, in the first place, that such an error by the state would ever occur. The ethics investigation, if nothing else, would likely catch such an error. But even if it somehow happened, it's unlikely the state would not immediately move to correct once it became aware of the error. If the attorney argued that the state should have caught it before it swore him in; and that it's not his fault that they didn't catch it on his application; and that he never lied about it on said application and, therefore, it's their fault with which the state must live, the state would likely argue that the applicant should never have proffered a J.D. degree in the first place that clearly didn't meet the criteria clearly set forth in published state rules for bar admission; and that his having done so -- even though he never lied about it and it was right out there in plain sight -- in the hopes that the state would not notice, or that he expected the state to tell him that it was unacceptable rather than him making sure it actually was okay by specifically asking the state about it, amounted to a deception. Deception -- even of the passive variety -- will get you thrown out of the bar but fast.

    Moral turpitude cuts a wide swath.
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  15. #14
    Jake_A is offline Registered User
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    posted by Lerner
    Lesson leaned - CA Authorized School produced graduates a person who seems to be very successful.
    So, that's it? That's your final answer?

    A "school" or DL business - accredited or not, approved or not, licensed or not, respected or not, shady or not - graduates ONE or more persons who go on to be "successful" thus that school or DL outfit is legitimate - is that your opinion?

    Amazing!

    Not too long ago, a former middleweight (or was it welterweight?) boxing champion who was convicted of murder and sent to prison somewhere in New Jersey, studied and obtained a "degree" while he was behind bars.

    I guess, per your assessment, that prison, or the DL outfit he was permitted to use while in prison, must be considered legitimate educational institutions since the convicted murderer was eventually released on parole - and became a sought-after community volunteer and youth leader/mentor, a success story, one might say.

    Lerner, you agree with my summation, do you not?

    posted by Lerner
    ....... It was a business that was forced out by inability or business decision not to comply with new regulations, so when things got hard they moved and then it got harder they in order to make profit and survive continued down the easy path.
    Politicians do that, Lawyers do that (not all).
    So, am I correct in stating that you think that it was ok for the entity or "school" to run from state to state to evade enhanced state oversight and regulation?

    Amazing!

    posted by Lerner
    Politicians do that, Lawyers do that (not all).
    Examples, please, of US politicians and also of US lawyers in US states that you are aware of, who go from state to state when one state's laws or regulation/compliance efforts get "harder."

    Thanks.
    Jake_A
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  17. #15
    Jake_A is offline Registered User
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    posted by DesElms
    Moral turpitude cuts a wide swath.
    It most certainly does!
    Jake_A
    "A good name is better than riches."

    BS Brown University, Prov, RI
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    Ph.D. candidate

  18. #16
    paula is offline Registered User
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    Southland

    Sorry for using all caps. My bad.

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