Program Revision

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by rtongue, Mar 11, 2005.

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  1. rtongue

    rtongue New Member

    I started and completed a Master of Arts in Theological Studies (at least I thought I did) which had not yet received state approval or accreditation. Now the program has been approved by the state and the school is a candidate for regional accreditation but I am told that I have to take additional courses to graduate. Does the school have the right to require this?
     
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Would you mind divulging which program? Or will you just leave us all to guess that it's Trinity, in Newburgh Indiana? Am I right?

    Regardless, as with most questions asked around here, more questions need to be answered by you first...

    When you say "at least I thought I did," what does that mean? I mean, did you merely finish the work, but hadn't really declared, "Hey, I'm done... send me my diploma;" or had someone actually handed you your diploma and transcript and sent you on your way?

    If it's the former, it's difficult to see a legal reason that they could not do what they've done.

    If it's the latter, well... that might be a different story.

    But you know what I would do if I were you? I'd refrain from arguing with them. Instead, I'd ask them to put in writing:
    1. That I had not, in fact, completed my Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree; and,
    2. That, in order to do so, I would need to complete certain additional courses, and I would ask them to put in writing what those were; and,
    3. That once I had completed those courses, I would, in fact, be issued my Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree; and,
    4. That, since they had thrown me so far off schedule with this bombshell, I could have five (5) additional years to complete the additional coursework; and,
    5. That, again because of the bombshell they've thrown at me, and how much it's messing-up my budget, they will lock-in my tuition at whatever was its highest level back when I was still taking courses for the Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree that I thought I had completed.[/list=1]And if they wouldn't agree to all five points of the foregoing, I'd then decide which ones I could live without (like, say, #5, for example... but that would pretty much be the only one) and then I'd negotiate the other four with them and get them to put it in writing in the form of an informal (but nevertheless binding) agreement.

      If they woudn't agree to any of it, then maybe I'd change my strategy and hire me a local Indiana attorney and make an appointment with them and take him with me; and I'd have him use words like "breach" and "implied contract" and "actionable" in as many sentences as possible so as to effect maximum slamming-shut of the sphincters in the room; and then I'd tell them that I wouldn't sue them silly if they'd just sign my little agreement... except that if they pushed me that far, I'd change item 4, above, so that I'd have either five years, or one year longer than however long it takes them to be accredited, whichever is longer.

      And then, once I'd gotten them to put all that in writing, I'd go ahead and take the first of the additional courses... working through it at a leisurely pace. Then the second. Then the third... until only one course was left. Then I'd stop and just sit there, doing nothing more...

      ...until they had finally and officially gotten their regional accreditation; at which point I would go ahead and enroll in and complete within one year that last course.

      By so doing, I will have converted my previously unaccredited (and, some would argue, worthless, therefore) Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree into a fully regionally-accredited one, lickety split!

      And that's because the way things work in accreditation, whatever status the school has (i.e., accredited or unaccredited) at the time that one completes one's degree is the very same status that said degree will have.

      In other words, if you begin a fully accredited Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree, and then the school loses its accreditation one month before you finish your last course, you're screwed: Your Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree will not be regionally accredited.

      But if you begin an unaccredited Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree (as you did), and then the school becomes regionally accredited one month before you finish it (as you could arrange, if you're clever and crafty), then your Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree will be fully regionally-accredited, too!

      So, sure, doing what I prescribe will mean that you won't finally get your Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree for a few more years... but at least when you finally do get it, it will be regionally-accredited. And a heck of alot of people around here would argue that that imprimatur is worth the wait. And, even better, you'll not really have done all that much more work to achieve this cool thing, when you stop and think about it.

      So, so what if they've given you lemons.

      Make some lemonade!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2005
  3. rtongue

    rtongue New Member

    Re: Re: Program Revision

    Greg,

    I appreciate very much you’re taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply. Actually the school is Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary in Lansdale, PA. They have agreed to points 1 through 5. The additional requirements were one course and a thesis. They have agreed to let me take the additional course at no charge. I apologize if I made things sound worse than they really are. Also thank you for explaining how accreditation works. I did not realize it went by the status of the school on the date the diploma is awarded. My dilemma now is weather to try and wait it out or finish up now and get the non-accredited degree right now. The reason why I would not want to wait it out is that I will be graduating with an MBA next year and if the MATS is conferred after the MBA, I would have to explain to employers that I am not interested in ministry or teaching but in continuing my career in business which is true at least at the present time. Which would you choose if you were in my situation the so called wortless unaccredited MATS that predates the MBA or a RA MATS conferred after the MBA?



     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2005
  4. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Program Revision

    You're saying that they've agreed to give you until sometime after however long it takes them to finally become officially regionally-accredited to complete the additional course and thesis; that your degree period won't time-out sometime along the way? And, even better yet, that they'll let you take that additional course for free? How 'bout the thesis? Isn't there a fee?

    No you wouldn't. Get that notion out of your head. I know lots of business people with impressive business degrees (like an MBA, for example... or even a law degree) who decide, just for the love of the subject, to get a theology degree on top of their MBA or J.D. or whatever it is they've got. And I'm unaware of a single employer that would so much as blink over it.

    I think you're assuming that business wants more specialization from you than it actually does; and, moreover, that it wants such specialization to be with blinders on so as to keep other subjects -- like theology, for example -- out. That's just not the way it is.

    You'll have nothing to explain to anyone! Nothing! I'd be surprised if any employer or potential employer, upon noticing that your MATS came after your MBA, would so much as mention it, much less back you into any weird corners over it. And, in fact, if I ever worked for or interviewed with one who did, I'd quit (if it were the former), or excuse myself from the interview (if it were the latter).

    Well, I've already, above, argued that it matters not which degree predates the other. It's a non-issue... trust me on this. Believe! [grin]

    As for whether or not I'd do it, I must tell you that this is a no-brainer. Absolutely no contemplation -- at least if it were me -- would be required. You're sitting in the catbird seat like few I've ever seen in my life. You've been handed an amazing gift. By being in the right place at the right time, you're just one course and a thesis of what... 15,000 to 25,000 words (which, I dunno about you, but I could do that standing on one foot) from a regionally-accredited MATS when that's not even what you signed-up for in the first place! And, to make it even more amazing, it's either free or nearly free. All you have to do is time your completion of the work so that it happens after the school is officially accredited... which it sounds like they're going to let you do without timing-out the period during which you must complete studies... yet another gift.

    If you don't need that MATS for anything anytime soon, this should be an easy question for you to answer... but just in case it isn't let me help you:
    • Do the RA MATS conferred after the MBA!
    Clear enough? ;)

    But I'm telling you -- and you listen to me, now -- don't trust anyone's verbal (or even casually written) promises at that school. Let me tell you how to spend the best $350 to $750 you've ever spent in your life... and, please, LISTEN UP:
    • I know you know and like these people (at Calvary), and you've been working with them, and there's a bond of trust, etc., but listen to me: GET FROSTY! Don't trust them on this issue any further than you can throw them. Ask around (friends, family members, co-workers, etc.) about attorneys that you can hire; and when the same name comes-up more than a couple of times, call him/her and make an appointment. Bring your checkbook and be prepared to tender a retainer -- probably $350 to $750, for as simple as this thing I'm about to tell you to do will be for him/her.
    • Print-off this forum thread so you can show it to him/her if s/he needs a little background. Explain the situation to him/her. Tell him/her that you want to draft a very simple agreement -- on just one, single page, if it can be done... and in as simple, but still legally-binding language as possible so it won't intimidate the Calvary people when you present it to them.
    • Have the "whereas" part of the agreement simply state that while you trust Calvary completely, you also realize that regional accreditation is a huge and transforming undertaking; and that sometimes promises made before or at the beginning of the accreditation process can't later be kept for reasons unforeseen at the outset of the process, and cite the fact that it's already happened to you despite that fact that Calvary is only beginning its accreditation process; and, therefore, because the stakes are so very high, you feel you have no choice but to convert Calvary's verbal committments into writing for their protection and yours. Your lawyer will know how to soften it up to make it seem like it's win-win for all parties. The "whereas" part should also put right out there on the table that everyone's clear and unambiguous intent is that you should benefit from Calvary's upcoming regional accreditation by having your MATS officially completed after Calvary finally gets it's accreditation -- no matter how long that takes -- so that your MATS will also be regionally-accredited. Finally, a mention of how Calvary's shifting gears on you just when you thought you were finished has harmed you and that the concessions to which Calvary is agreeing is to make you whole again. Again, your lawyer will know how to put all that into the proper language, and to define and acknowledge consideration, blah, blah, blah. S/he'll know what to do.
    • Have Calvary declare, for the record, that, in fact, your MATS is as yet unfinished.
    • Have Calvary specify, for the record, precisely which additional courses and or writing requirements will be required, by course number and description, to finish your MATS in a way acceptable to the regional accreditor so that there will be no question that your MATS will be worthy of being considered "regionally-accredited;" and also get them to agree that even if the requirements somehow change again in the furture, your requirements, pursuant to the agreement, will be whatever Calvary declares therein, and that's that.
    • Have Calvary declare that you shall have the of five (5) years, or until one (1) year after Calvary is officially awarded its regional accreditation, whichever is longest, to complete the additional requirements; and that even if you take the course now and then they don't hear from you about the thesis again for months or years, the alloted degree-completion time will not "time out" until the end of the time frame as described in the previous item here.
    • Have Calvary declare precisely what the costs will be -- including tuition and all ancillary fees -- to the penny; and that said fees are locked-in for you and will not be raised for you even if said fees go up for others; and have them specify precisely how they should be paid.
    • Be clear and unambiguous about what you're doing by stating that you'll be intentionally timing the completion of the additional course and thesis so that it happens sometime after Calvary finally gets its accreditation so that your MATS, too, will be regionally-accredited; that that goal is imperative; and that any and all actions by the parties pursuant to the agreement must not be contrary to or in any way inhibit or constructively interfere with your final realization of that goal, even if keeping on track toward and ensuring said goal requires minor and unforeseen deviations from the precise language, but not the spirit, of the agreement. A well-worded clause like this will give the court great guidance in understanding what the parties intend, even if other stuff later falls apart. Your lawyer will know how to word it.
    Your lawyer will also know how to add all the necessary boilerplate (survivability, inuring the benefit, governed by the laws of, blah, blah, blah).

    Have him put a place on the agreement for your signature, and for the president of the university or some other executive so high up in Calvary's food chain that there will be no question that the university will be bound by his hand (your lawyer will probably want to have a quick chat with Calvary's lawyer to find out who that should be).

    Then have your lawyer send it over and get their signature but quick. Or you can take it over or something. If your lawyer has the right kind of opening chat with their lawyer, no one at Calvary will be alarmed, and their lawyer will recommend to them that they sign it. But get them to sign it before you let out your sigh of relief. This sort of thing ain't over 'til it's over.

    HELPFUL HINT-O-THE-DAY: Don't delay! The further into the accreditation process they get, the less likely they'll be to want to commit to anything. Do this right now, while they're still in a good mood. Make your appointment today or Monday -- or at least early next week. Have the attorney knock out that contract by next Friday, and get Calvary's signature on it the following week.

    Hope that helps! Good luck to you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2005
  5. rtongue

    rtongue New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Program Revision

    I cannot thank you enough for the advice. I appreciate the guidance on how to approach from a legal standpoint and for helping me to see how important regional accreditation really is. You have also helped me to see some errors in my thinking in regard to feeling that I would have explain a theology degree after an MBA. Calvary was not clear about how long they would give me to complete the degree. They did not mention a fee for the thesis. The only thing that may be sticky about getting a lawyer involved is that I am a member of the Church associated with the school. Although, I do not think they would chastise me [grin] for looking out for my own self-interest and asking them to sign a contract. However, if it ever came down to a law suite, I believe I would just walk away from the degree.
     
  6. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    That's precisely why you need a lawyer... you just need to remember that the really good ones are like pit bulls unless you rein 'em in and tell 'em to be soft and nice about it. If you or your lawyer talks to Calvary about a "contract," yes... it may offend. But if your lawyer talks to their lawyer, everything will be fine because their lawyer will see the wisdom in it, will understand the cover-your-ass mentality, and will tell them that what you're asking is reasonable.

    Or so would be the case if it were my lawyer.

    Just tryin' to help.

    But don't walk away from the degree. You can always finish it and let it be unaccredited. After all... unaccredited was okay back when you first signed-up for it, right? I mean... don't throw it all away!

    Look... if you're that close to them (and I didn't realize you were), then just sit down and have a heart-to-heart with 'em. Explain what you want to do to someone there who's got some clout; get him/her to buy-in and agree to help you; and figure out how to get the basic terms that I've prescribed into writing somehow.

    If you're afraid to do the lawyer approach, then just write it up yourself as a letter or something from them to you, then take it in and see if they'll XEROX it onto their letterhead and then have someone really high-up sign it. It doesn't necessarily have to be in contract format. I was just prescribing something that I knew would protect you. But your unwillingness to take it to court in any case also removes the need for the contractual formality.

    If they'll just put it in writing somehow, then you'll have something to show someone down the road when they screw you again... and maybe your relationship with them, and the fact that they put it in writing, will make them have a heart.

    There are many ways to skin this cat. I'm just tossin' out a few, here. Take my idea, ponder it, put your own twist on it, and go for it in your own way.

    I'm sure it'll work out if you just think about it for a while and approach it in the way that makes you most comfortable. It'll be fine. Just don't let this unique opportunity go. It's just too delicious. It's quite possible that they're gifting you a regionally-accredited MATS that you never signed-up for in the first place (but now want) in exchange for relatively little additional work, and even less cash outlay! Talk about a deal! One way or another, you gotta' figure out how to turn this into a regionally-accredited MATS even if you have trade 'em that you'll teach a course during an undergraduate summer school session for free or something.

    Just don't let this slip between your fingers. This is one of those once-in-a-lifetime kinda' deals. Don't blow it!

    ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2005
  7. rtongue

    rtongue New Member

    Greg,

    Thanks a ton!!!


     

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