ACICS vs DETC... a hypothetical (Seeking really good commentary and advice)

I enthusiastically invite all here who have something worthwhile and useful to contribute to this thread to please, by all means, do so!

Let's forget about regional accreditation for just a moment of hypothetical; and let's also, for that same hypothetical moment, not factor-in what would at least appear to be DETC's greater name recognition, popularity and/or peceived credibility over ACICS.

On that somewhat more level playing field, how does ACICS fare against DETC as a USDE/CHEA-approved accreditor... I mean, really?

Before anyone answers, please let me explain what I'm trying to accomplish, here, so that maybe your responses will be more specific, appropriate and useful...


I'm trying to envision myself in the shoes of someone wishing to start a small, private, non-profit, degree-granting college or university (probably college) in the state of California. Forget, for a moment, such practical and logistical issues as whether it would be sufficiently capitalized, or whether it had all its professorial ducks in a row, etc. Let's assume, for my little hypothetical, here, that all of those sorts of things were adequately covered.

Let's also assume that the hypothetical little school I'm talking about here already has all of its necessary and essential BPPVE approvals all squared away; as well as all of its other local, state and federal stuff -- whatever it may be -- all taken care of.

For our purposes here, I just want to concentrate on the narrow area of credibility in general; but, most-specifically, on USDE- and/or CHEA-approved national accreditation as a means of achieving it (remembering, of course, that for our purposes, here, regional accreditation is not an option).

Here are the factors that would not only help to describe the hypothetical little school I'm imagining, but will also lay out some accreditation-related logistical issues/problems that might affect your assessment and response:

1. Let's say this little school wants to be able to offer certificates, diplomas, and AA, AS, AAS, BA, BS, BAS, MA and MS credentials. Whether it actually would offer all of those credentials is an entirely different matter that we're not discussing here. Suffice it to say that the school wants to leave open all its options by being certified to offer the entire range of post-secondary, sub-doctorate credentials.
   
2. And let's say, further, that this little school intends to train at least two very specific kinds of degreed, professionals -- one decidely secular, and one decidedly religious (Christian, to be specific) -- who would, typically, seek and achieve the school's highest degrees (i.e., MA and/or MS); and that, in addition, the school planned to provide practical education and training for a number of lesser-related/-included jobs within those two professional areas (which is where the certificates, diplomas, associates and bachelors degrees would come).
   
3. And let's say, further, that the founders of this little school buy-in, to the very depths of their souls, to the notion of the absolute necessity of achieving some kind of USDE- and/or CHEA-approved national accreditation within... oh... let's say the first three to five years, if possible, but by no means longer than within its first ten years of operation; and, so fearful would they be that someone might call them a diploma/degree mill, or that their graduates could not don their credentials with pride in states like Oregon, that they would rather take a bullet in the head than claim some sort of lame "religious exemption." Let's say, in fact, that so strong would be their belief in this notion of USDE- and/or CHEA-approved national accreditation that they all agreed that if it couldn't be done within the first three to ten years then there would really be no point in even getting started; and, in fact, so willing to put their money where their mouths are in this regard that they further agreed to include the requirement that USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditation must be achieved within its first decade of operation or the school must be either closed, or sold to another accredited school of similar philosophical bent, right into in the school's corporate charter... which charter would further specify that said requirement could never be changed or extended, even by unamimous vote of the school's corporate board!
   
4. And let's say, further, that this little school's founders intend to innovate and leverage all current (and/or currently-imagined) college/university course delivery methodologies/technologies in an amazing way such that the school would be able to offer, pretty much at a moment's notice, every single one of its courses to virtually anyone, virtually anywhere on the planet... including, of course, residentially, in its own building(s); and, moreover, that the requirements of all of its credential programs from the lowest post-secondary certificate to the highest masters degree would be constructed such that every single credential the school offers would be obtainable either completely in residence, or completely via distance learning, or by any combination of the foregoing... pretty much at the student's option.
   
5. And let's say, further, that though the school's religious aspect would be Christian, it would, nevertheless, not be of the conservative, overly-evangelical, fundamentalist or "bible-thumping" variety of Christianity and, in fact, would offer coursework helping students to understand what's inherently wrong with, and dangerous about, such forms of "Christianity;" and that, therefore, of the religiously-oriented national accreditors as listed on the CHEA web site, ABHE and TRACS would not an option.
   
6. And let's say, further, that because this little school would be decidedly Christian (as opposed to Jewish... or at least that's the plan for the moment; although, that said, including religious degrees in both Judaism and Islam which prepared professionals in those faiths, in much the same way as the Christian degrees would, is very appealing to this little school's founders) AARTS would probably not be an option... at least I don't think it would... not at first, anyway.
   
7. And let's say, further, that because of ATS's requirement that a substantial portion of the coursework must be in residence (as opposed to being completely via distance learning), ATS, too, would, sadly, almost certainly not be an option for this little school. Perhaps in the future, but because of ATS's rigid stance on distance learning, probably not... at least not until and unless ATS changes its position thereon (for which I, for one, will not hold my breath).
   
8. And let's say, further, that despite its groundbreaking and highly effective abilities to offer every last bit of what it teaches, and every last one of its credentials, completely via distance learning, this little school, nevertheless, does not want to be seen or considered as wholly, decidedly or, as a practical matter, effectively a "distance learning" institution and, therefore, hesitates strongly to seek DETC accreditation in any case.
   
9. All of the above would appear to leave only ACICS as a potential national accreditor for this hypothetical little school. Neverthless, interestingly and attractively, ACICS's very name ("Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools") would appear to provide the very sort of secular kind of imprimatur that the founders of this little school would like to have from its USDE- and/or CHEA-approved national accreditor.[/list=1]Given all of these circumstances, above, and the sole national accreditor choice with which they would seem to leave this little school's founders, what, if anything, would be the downside of ACICS (instead of DETC) accreditation for this little school?
   
   Sure, regional-accreditation would be best... and maybe this hypothetical little school would pursue RA someday in the future. But, for now, why would or wouldn't the imprimatur of ACICS be the logical thing for this little school to seek, pretty much right out of the gate, all other things considered? And, if so, how would such accreditation either help or hurt it, given the other choices?
   
   In the ongoing debate between DETC accreditation and regional accreditation, would ACICS accreditation stand-up in the eyes of the world against regional accreditation even as well as DETC accreditation tends to... and, if so or if not, why?
   
   Finally, is DETC accreditation, as a practical matter, superior -- and I mean in measureable and objective ways other than simply its name recognition and/or popularity -- to ACICS accreditation? If so, is DETC's imprimatur so much better and so much more credible than ACICS's that this little school's founders should, at all costs, figure out a way to overcome their fear of the school being thought of as a primarily "distance learning" institution, post haste, so that they may seek DETC accreditation instead?
   
   Comments, questions, observations, suggestions, ridicule... anyone?
   
   Boy... it sure would be nice if ACICS's executive director, Dr. Steven A Eggland, or someone else on ACICS's staff, knew about this thread and just happened to drop-in here to make some comments! (Hint, hint)

 

A couple possible problems with ACICS in the scenario you outlined.
First, they state that "...principal educational activity shall be residential." While ACICS was approved a few years ago to accredit dl courses/programs, their focus is still on residential programs. Would it cause this school accreditation problems if the dl program grew proportionatelyl larger than the residential program? If so, would this school want to limit future growth in their dl program (regardless of how popular it had proved to be) in order to maintain a good relationship with it's accreditor? I don't know, but I would definitely want to know the ACICS position.
Second, would the school's religious programs cause a problem with what is mainly, and states so themselves, an accreditor of business programs?

Good luck,
Tony

P.S. ACICS is the only specific, non-RA accreditor I have seen named as meeting the accreditation requirements for sitting the CPA exam (either Oregon or Washington, I believe).
P.S.S. I doubt if there is generally any difference between DETC and ACICS in acceptance (or lack thereof) by academia, and, except for the lingering distance learning bias, no difference in acceptance by employers.

 

Hmm. Okay... how would the "size" of the residential program be determined or defined: By the number of hours that the institution is capable of delivering -- or, better yet, willing to deliver -- residentially; or by the number of hours that it actually, as a practical matter, delivers residentially? If it's the former, them my hypothetical little school would qualify because each and every course, and each and every credential program, could be delivered either completely in residence, completely via distance learning, or by any combination thereof, at the student's option. That more students, in actuality, happen to choose D/L; and, therefore, that more hours are thereby delivered (if, in fact, that's the case), would not (if it's the former) matter.

They're professions (which, by definition, is business-related, is it not?) which earn money for those in them (which is a salient ingredient of being in business, is it not?). The organizations for which they'd be working, or which they'd run, keep books, make "marketing" decisions, pay bills, "sell" services, etc., just like any other business, right?

We're not talking about history degrees, for which it is sometimes difficult (but certainly not impossible) to even imagine the logical career for which such a degree would be preparing the student. On the contrary, we're talking, in my hypothetical little school, about the kinds of degrees that fully prepare the student for a specific kind of work, job, career or profession. In that sense, such degrees would be almost like applied science degrees (AAS or BAS), except that at the AA/AS and/or BA/BS levels, short shrift would not be given to general education requirements (as they often are in AAS and BAS degrees), and students would get a full 32- to 36-hour dose thereof -- whether they wanted it or not. Only at the AAS or BAS levels would as few as 15 to maybe 24 hours of general education coursework be required. But in all cases, there would be no "fluff" degrees, certificates or diplomas which didn't directly prepare the graduate for a specific work, job, career or profession.

Just one more reason why I think ACICS should be taken a bit more seriously than it perhaps is.

That's precisely the kind of opinion I was hoping to get. Thanks, Tony.

Do others agree? Disagree? Don't give a rat's...?

 

Hi Gregg - Perhaps the reason you're not getting much of a response is that you've explicitly stated that you are only interested in "really good commentary," as opposed to the general, average, "pretty good commentary" that we're all accustomed to giving. Or then again, maybe it's something else.

Jack
(this is an example of "really pretty pathetic commentary" on my part.)

 

ACICS VS DETC

Having been a student at both types of schools, I found that they appeared to work well together. Never had problems with transfer credits and it worked both ways. The ACICS school was fully residential and allowed the graduates to sit for the Accountancy Exam in Florida. All courses were business related at the time.
The DETC schools accepted all ACICS credits, but offered a broader curriculum and degrees in fields other than business. As long as the basic educational requirements were met, DETC was more serviceable for military, working, students with interests in other areas. Now they are similar in courses offered.
The only problem was that we were unable to go beyond the MA/MS level and had trouble transfering credits into RA schools.
The RA schools, in which I taught, had a much wider course selection, cost more, but did not necessitate more work of the students.
Florida Atlantic is both DETC and RA with AACSB. So why the elitism with RA over NA? Egos and money.
Teaching oneself a couse , without the personal, political, views of a professor, emphasizes more reading and broader knowledge of a topic than just the specifics the professor believes most important.
Traditional education isn't going away, it's just becoming more difficult for to justify with the number of people requiring a mecanism for learning. And expenses rising yearly.
Just the musings of an old curmudgeon

 

ACICS vs DETC

Just my 2 cents. even though DETC and ACICS are both NA, but DETC received more recognition in other countries other than USA compared to ACICS, becos the method of teaching for DETC is through DL, unlike RA schools which are mostly B&M in United States,even though RA schools also offer DL programs, and i believed that most or even all universities that are accredited by ACICS are B&M as well (so since both are B&M schools, why choose an NA schools), which is less recognised, or even not recognised by other countries other than United States, but at least in my country. My government and even Ministry of Education do not recognised ACICS, but do recognised DETC and other 6 RA agencies, becos RA schools are taught by traditional method (classroom based) which is/are recognised by all countries, or even DL by both RA and DETC schools (different method of teaching, etc..online, or DL ) As i know, most countries in South-East Asia/ Asias ONLY accept/ recognised universites that are accredited by the 6 RA agencies and DETC.

So if you want your NA degree to be accept and recognised by other countries other than United Stated, pursed DETC accredited schools.


Kozen

 

ACICS vs DETC

Just my 2 cents. even though DETC and ACICS are both NA, but DETC received more recognition in other countries other than USA compared to ACICS, becos the method of teaching for DETC is through DL, unlike RA schools which are mostly B&M in United States,even though RA schools also offer DL programs, and i believed that most or even all universities that are accredited by ACICS are B&M as well (so since both are B&M schools, why choose an NA schools), which is less recognised, or even not recognised by other countries other than United States, but at least in my country. My government and even Ministry of Education do not recognised ACICS, but do recognised DETC and other 6 RA agencies, becos RA schools are taught by traditional method (classroom based) which is/are recognised by all countries, or even DL by both RA and DETC schools (different method of teaching, etc..online, or DL ) As i know, most countries in South-East Asia/ Asias ONLY accept/ recognised universites that are accredited by the 6 RA agencies and DETC.

So if you want your NA degree to be accepted and recognised by other countries other than United Stated, pursed DETC accredited schools.


Kozen

 

ACICS vs DETC

Oh ya...one thing to add on. DETC is the only NA agency that is/are recognised by other countries. (based on method of teaching) other than RA. other NA accredited, other than DETC and ACICS are professional accreditation which usually required the schools to be RA, so shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't mixed with ACICS and DETC as both are accredited based on method of teaching.


Kozen

 

I don't know where that comes from.

ACICS is considerably larger than DETC. (CHEA lists some 600 ACICS schools, vs. about 80 for DETC.) My own impression is that ACICS is marginally better known. But the difference is probably small.

The inescapable fact is that both of these accreditors are obscure when compared to the regional accreditors. I think that when most people use the word "accredited", they intend it to refer to the same kind of accreditation that all of the familiar schools have. In fact, many people seem to be unaware that there is any other kind.

I think that both accreditors have vocational roots. ACICS is known for small proprietary business skills colleges, many of them at the certificate and associates level. DETC has roots in 'learn a skill in your spare time' correspondence courses.

Both accreditors have been trying to move upscale in the last ten years or so, accrediting more university-style programs at the bachelors and masters level. Both want very badly to break into doctorates. But neither accreditor really has a scholarly reputation at the present time.

 

Re: ACICS vs DETC

Interesting... and curious why any country (excluding the U.S.) would zero-in on, and honor, regional accreditation rather than being satisfied with any accreditor as long as it's approved by the U.S. Department of Education and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA).

And how even more curious it is that Singapore, once having narrowed its focus on the regional accreditors, singled-out DETC as the one and only national accreditor that it decided to elevate to similar status.

On what criteria could Singapore possibly base such decisions?

GENERAL NOTE: While the above are almost more rhetorical than anything else, comments are nevertheless welcome... but please, if you haven't already, please also comment on the thread-starting post as long as you're here! Thanks!

 

If you have a fairly large facility, faculty, and unlimited funds. I can see how you could teach the sciences. You would need labs, computers, library, storage etc... . These are the type questions I had, reference the resurrection of CPU, before getting booted from the forum. If expense is no problem, and you feel you can justify a high tuition (for an NA degree), go ACICS. However, ACICS accredits mainly business and technical schools. I found no religious schools on their list.
But if you have a limited faculty, small facility and are hindered by expenses, low tuition, and attempting to gain RA status,in the future, you could not offer any of the hard sciences. DETC, with a limited curriculum, would be a starting point. Money, is the limiting factor. And as stated above, DETC appears to be accepted more readily. DETC has accredited a couple law schools and The Catholic Distance University. DETC does not mean you cannot have a B&M school.

 

Same

DesElms:
Go to both web sites and compare the differences. You will save yourself some time.

 

If I'm not mistaken ITT is accredited by the ACICS.

I don't have any personal experience with ITT but I heard complains from it graduates when it came to credit transfer or employment.

It appears to me that DETC achieved better recognition for credit transfer than ACICS

Learner.

 

You took up a lot of space to describe a hypothetical religious school. Is the question what questionable agency would legitimize your hypothetical religious school, answer is probably both but who cares?

 

Same

Dexter: I believe Des Elms is looking for a hypothetical accreditor for a hypothetical school. The two accreditors mentioned are legit. Remember we cannot be rhetorical. So I suggest that the Hypothetical School apply to me. Send me $5000 and I'll hypothetically accredit your hypothetical school.
The Hypothetical Accrediting Association was created, hypothetically, to hypothetically confer hypothetical degrees. Any hypothetical school can be hypothetically accredited through a hypothetical review of hypothetical curriculum, instructors, facilities, and utility of the hypothetical degrees. This would also require an on-site hypothetical review.
I'm also starting the What If Accrediting Association, but what if I'm not home when The What If School Board calls? What if a meteor were to fall on the school? Hypothetically, The What If School would be unable to attain accreditation, maybe.
Maybe I'll start The Maybe Accrediting Association to fill the gaps of the Hypothetical and What If Accrediting Associations. But what if, maybe, I hypothetically don't care.

 

Re: Same

I did what you suggested... but... I dunno... I just couldn't find any opinions, there, from people at DegreeInfo.

Get it?

Obviously, not you. I trust that your post, here, wasn't in the hope that I'd care about that.

And, no, it would only be half religious.... the other half would be even more secular than the University of Atheism... if such a thing existed.

So you're saying "RA or no way," then, is that about it? It was difficult to determine, I realize, since that concept was surrounded by so much other meaningless drivel... but I managed, nevertheless.

So DETC and ACICS are "questionable?" Is that pretty much your boiled-down thesis?

And be careful with how you sling around "legitimize," Mr. Loaded-Word. The hypothetical little school I'm talking about would out-legitimate any RA school you can name... meeting or exceeding RA standards, generally, by a country mile. My reason for eliminating RA from the hypothetical had nothing to do with corner cutting.

Finally, sorry that I wasted so much of your browser's precious real estate. Maybe if you didn't value brevity over thoroughness you'd see things differently.

Then, for someone who doesn't care, you sure wasted a helluva lot of time making a childish attack here for things I've written elsewhere which bother you; but with which you apparently can't effectively argue on their own terms. That, I dare say, is far more telling about you than it is about me.

 

SAME

Greg: Get some sleep. It has all been in jest. If you looked at both sites then you know DETC is the only one accrediting religious schools at this time. ACICS is prepared primarily to cover business and technical schools. Don't kill yourself over work. I'm just as cranky when I haven't had sleep for days.

 

SAME

Greg: Get some sleep. It has all been in jest. If you looked at both sites then you know DETC is the only one accrediting religious schools at this time. ACICS is prepared primarily to cover business and technical schools. Don't kill yourself over work. I'm just as cranky when I haven't had sleep for days.

 

Re: SAME

And/or you lose your patience and click on the "Submit Reply" button too many times.

Look... if you were just screwin' around, then I'm sorry I snapped at you. It just seemed like something else. Upon re-reading, frankly, it still seems like it was something else. But if I'm wrong, and if it's just a big ol' misunderstanding, them I'm sorry, truly, for my part of it.

I understand what you're saying about ACICS... but just hear me out on this one small point, okay? If you look at most of the schools that ACICS has accredited, yes, they're decidedly "business" oriented. I get that... have from even before I started this thread. But many of them are also decidedly not "business" oriented, in the classic sense; and are, instead, "profession" or "career" oriented.

A profession or career is, inherently, and on its face, a business-related sort of thing. It's the pound of silver that defines it as "business;" and that same pound of silver must be present in order to call it a "profession" or a "career."

That being the case, why wouldn't ACICS be interested in a school that trains pastors just as much as it would be in a school that trains beauticians?

But, anyway... that's not really the thrust of the thread, to begin with. What I'm most interested in is how ACICS compares with DETC; and whether a goup of investors contemplating starting a school such as I describe -- which is precisely what's going on, here, and whom I represent -- should work toward ACICS accreditation or DETC accreditation... that is, if they don't decide to just "go for it" and go straight to RA... which is sorta' the direction toward which I'm nudging them every chance I get.

Absent RA, I must confess that I kinda' like ACICS. Their web site is a mess and has all kinds of broken links so I can't read all the documents that I'd like to. And their list of accredited schools reads, for the most part, like a 12- to 18-month program, beauty and secretarial school (and a suchandsuch technician) honor roll! But, in keeping with the changes that it seems ACICS is trying to make of late, it's also starting to accredit some halfway decent- and interesting-looking institutions... hence my interest in it as an alternative to DETC.

 

One big advantage in going with ACICS is the ability to offer federal financial aid. A school can attract a lot more students when they (the students) have a way to pay for their tuition. Also, it would allow this school to raise more revenue (by charging higher tuition), which would certainly help out in the possibly eventual RA bid, and/or in doing things right and not cutting corners.

As to the "residential" and "business programs" concerns, I won't argue with your rationale. I brought them up as big maybes that should, of course, be asked of ACICS before going to far in the process or falling in love with a particular scenario.

Again, good luck,
Tony