Easiest way to see if college is mill

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by larryjf, Mar 2, 2005.

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  1. larryjf

    larryjf New Member

    I think the easiest way to see if a college is a mill is just to google the college name + "diploma mill".

    Google: "[university name]" "diploma mill"
     
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    So, you're saying that one should type into the "search" field:
    • +"suchandsuch university" +"diploma mill"
    is that about it? If so, to be thorough, one should probably type, instead:
    • +"suchandsuch university" +"diploma mill" OR "degree mill"
    And, by the way, the quotes, spaces, capitalization, etc., should be exactly as I've typed it, in bold, above.

    Okay... that's valid, I guess. What [my version] would do is produce links to web pages which contain both the name of the univeristy and either of the phrases "degree mill" or "diploma mill" (or both). So you'd be getting web pages from probably other forums like this one in which someone is either calling the institution a diploma or degree mill, or refuting same. The web site of the institution itself would likely not contain either of the phrases "diploma mill" or "degree mill," so sites that only talk about same would be the best one could hope for.

    And I'm sure that has some value. But I would argue that the very first place to always begin is the CHEA web site's institutional database, the search page of which is at:If it isn't accredited by a CHEA-approved agency, that's the first red flag. That's not to say that there aren't many perfectly legitimate insitutions out there that are not accredited by a CHEA-approved agency. But lack of that sort of imprimatur should be a first warning sign; and an indicator that the institution in question deserves additional scrutiny and a higher degree of skepticism... at least until adequate due diligence indicates otherwise.
     
  3. larryjf

    larryjf New Member

    DesElms,

    I think you're right about the CHEA website, but that is limited.

    First, it's only US schools.

    Second, it only lists accredited schools. So that doesn't mean that the schools "not" on the list are mills.

    As you said, it would raise a red flag, and you would have to investigate further.

    That's why i think the "google" way is the "easiest" way of finding out the true shams.

    It always gets a little murkier when you are talking about some non-accredited schools that are still reputable, but there are few of them.
     
  4. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    <<First, it's only US schools.>>

    That's not exactly true. As long as a school is accredited by either a regional or national accrediting agency it will appear on the CHEA list. For example, there are Canadian schools that are on the list.

    Pug
     
  5. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    Googling degree mills

    I tried that lookup on Google and the only hits I received were Degreeinfo posts!;)
     
  6. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Googling degree mills

    Very cute... thank you. :rolleyes:

    Just in case the painfully obvious needs to be stated: In my example, one would substitute for the words "suchandsuch university" whatever actual university s/he wished to check out. So, for example, if one wanted to check out Breyer State, then one would type the following, exactly as shown, including spacing, quotes, plus signs and all:
    • +"breyer state" +"diploma mill" OR "degree mill"
    and one would get results like these.

    Another way might be to approach it from the theoretically opposite direction, as in:
    • +"breyer state" +accredited OR accreditation
    which would yield these results.
     
  7. mighty mouse

    mighty mouse New Member

    Re: Re: Googling degree mills

    I take it you thought I typed in "suchandsuch university." Not exactly. I typed in the name of a school from a recent post. All that came up were references to degreeinfo.
     
  8. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    On second thought...

    Actually, larryjf and pugbelly, upon further reflection, it occurs to me that maybe the US Department Of Education's (USDoE) Office of Post-Secondary Education's (OPE) new accredited institutions web site/database might be better. Both the CHEA and the USDoE OPE web sites agree on the regional accreditors, of course; but the USDoE OPE web site includes national accreditors that are not on the CHEA-approved list of national accreditors.

    For example, according to the CHEA web site, of the following eleven (11) USDoE-approved National Accreditors, five (5) of them, as noted below and shown with a red asterisk (*), are not also approved by CHEA:
    • Accrediting Bureau of Health Education Schools* (Approved by USDoE, but not approved by CHEA)
    • Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology* (Approved by USDoE, but not approved by CHEA)
    • Accrediting Commission of the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC) (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)
    • Accrediting Council for Continuing Education and Training* (Approved by USDoE, but not approved by CHEA)
    • Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)
    • Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools Accreditation Commission (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)
    • Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada Commission on Accrediting (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)
    • Association for Biblical Higher Education Commission on Accreditation (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)
    • Council on Occupational Education* (Approved by USDoE, but not approved by CHEA)
    • National Accrediting Commission of Cosmetology Arts and Sciences, Inc.* (Approved by USDoE, but not approved by CHEA)
    • Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools Accreditation Commission (Approved by both USDoE and CHEA)

      *Red asterisk = Approved by USDoE, but not also approved by CHEA.

      NOTE: CHEA-recognized organizations must meet CHEA eligibility standards (www.chea.org/recognition/recognition.asp). Accreditors exercise independent judgment about whether to seek CHEA recognition.

      For USDoE recognition, accreditation from the organization is used by an institution to establish eligibility to participate in federal student aid or other federal programs (www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/index.html). Some accreditors cannot be considered for USDoE recognition because they do not provide access to federal funds. Other accreditors have chosen not to pursue USDoE recognition.

      Because CHEA affiliation and USDoE recognition depend on a range of factors, readers are strongly cautioned against making judgments about the quality of an accrediting organization and its institutions based solely on CHEA or USDoE status. Additional inquiry is essential. If you have questions about the CHEA or USDoE recognition status of an accreditor, please contact the accrediting organization.
    And, actually, it gets even more complex. The new USDoE OPE database site lists the following, much longer list of national accreditors... only six (6) of which are on the CHEA-approved national accreditors list (which six are indicated with a red asterisk (*), below):
    • Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
    • Accrediting Bureau of Health Education Schools
    • Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology
    • Accrediting Commission on Education for Health Services Administration
    • Accrediting Council for Continuing Education and Training
    • Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools*
    • American Academy for Liberal Education
    • American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, Commission on Accreditation
    • American Bar Association, Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions
    • American Board of Funeral Service Education, Committee on Accreditation
    • American College of Nurse-Midwives, Division of Accreditation
    • American Council on Pharmaceutical Education
    • American Dental Association, Commission on Dental Accreditation
    • American Dietetic Association, Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education
    • American Occupational Therapy Association, Accreditation Council
    • American Optometric Association, Accreditation Council on Optometric Education
    • American Osteopathic Association, Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation
    • American Physical Therapy Association, Commission on Accreditation
    • American Podiatric Medical Association, Council on Podiatric Medical Education Accreditation
    • American Psychological Association, Committee on Accreditation
    • American Speech-Language-Hearing Association, Council on Academic Accreditation
    • American Veterinary Medical Association, Council on Education Accreditation
    • Association for Biblical Higher Education, Commission on Accreditation*
    • Association for Clinical Pastoral Education, Inc., Accreditation Commission
    • Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools, Accreditation Commission*
    • Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada*
    • Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education
    • Commission on English Language Program Accreditation
    • Commission on Massage Therapy Accreditation
    • Commission on Opticianry Accreditation
    • Council on Accreditation of Nurse Anesthesia Educational Programs
    • Council on Education for Public Health
    • Council on Naturopathic Medical Education
    • Council on Occupational Education
    • Distance Education and Training Council, Accrediting Commission*
    • Joint Review Committee on Education in Radiologic Technology
    • Joint Review Committee on Educational Programs in Nuclear Medicine Technology
    • Liaison Committee on Medical Education
    • Midwifery Education Accreditation Council
    • Montessori Accreditation Council for Teacher Education, Commission on Accreditation
    • National Accrediting Commission of Cosmetology Arts and Sciences
    • National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health, Council on Accreditation
    • National Association of Schools of Art and Design, Commission on Accreditation
    • National Association of Schools of Dance, Commission on Accreditation
    • National Association of Schools of Music, Commission on Accreditation, Commission on Accreditation
    • National Association of Schools of Theatre, Commission on Accreditation
    • National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education
    • National League for Nursing Accrediting Commission
    • New York State Board of Regents, and the Commissioner of Education
    • Teacher Education Accreditation Council, Accreditation Committee
    • The Council on Chiropractic Education, Commission on Accreditation
    • Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, Accreditation Commission*

      *Red asterisk = Also listed as a national accreditor on the CHEA web site.

      NOTE: The national accrediting agencies listed above are recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education and the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity as reliable authorities concerning the quality of education or training offered by the institutions of higher education or higher education programs they accredit. Accreditation by an agency included on this list may be used by an institution accredited by the agency to establish eligibility to participate in Title IV programs.
    So, then, for this thread's purposes, the USDoE OPE database would appear to be more complete than the CHEA database, no?

    For a list of CHEA-approved national accreditors:To access the USDoE OPE search database:

    Yes, I did assume that... but I now see that I shouldn't have. Sorry.

    Share, here, precisely what your search string was; or, better yet, provide a link here to its first search results page.... I'll then show you how to sanitize it of all degreeinfo links.
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Maybe, maybe not.

    Presumably you are suggesting that we look for webpages where somebody has labeled the questioned school a mill. But that kind of data is only as credible as the source. Who is talking? Why did they call the school a mill? Do you believe them?

    While that's useful, I prefer to look for positive results as well.

    Do other scholars, universities, public agencies and professional organizations respond to the thing? If so, what are they saying? Does anyone collaborate with the school? If so, how? Does anyone cite work done there? What kind of work is it? If the school has an intellectual life, is it mainstream or "alternative" in some sense? Has the school or its people won any grants or awards? Does the place seem to be distinctive in some way? Does it offer anything interesting or unusual?

    You can learn a lot.
     
  10. alarmingidea

    alarmingidea New Member

    I did this search on my own school. It pulled up an article by some guy named John Bear talking about how he bought a Harvard Law degree.

    I'd watch out for this guy. Sounds shady. :cool:
     
  11. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Googling degree mills

    Actually a lack of results can tell us a lot.

    When I'm going to Google a suspected mill, I usually start out with this:

    "[university name]" site:.edu

    That search will bring up all the pages in Google that contain the university's name and have urls in the .edu domain. You can try the same thing with .ac.uk or .ac.jp domains or whatever. If you are ambitious, do it with .gov or .mil too.

    Try it with a typical state university. You will get many thousands of hits. Look at some of them. What kind of things do university webpages typically say about other universities? Search within those results if you like, singling out pages that discuss subjects of special interest to you.

    Now try it with an obvious degree mill. Often you won't get any hits at all on .edu domains.

    OK. Do you really think that it's likely that a credible university that's busy churning out Ph.D.s in every subject under the sun can do that without the rest of the academic community even noticing?

    In my opinion, if there's such a thing as a quick and easy Google test for degree-mills, this is it.
     
  12. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    You're just kiddin' around, right?


    Bill,

    I most certainly agree with the essence of what you wrote, here... especially the basic logic behind it, what to look for, what it might mean... all that kinda' stuff. Good advice, indeed.

    The only thing that concerns me is the (hopefully accidental) impression with which it may leave the reader who might come away from it believing that an institution is legitimate just because its web site URL incorporates the .edu gTLD (generic top level domain).

    Alan Contreras was right to call me on this very issue recently... in another thread.

    The whole .edu credibility/reliability thing was discussed quite a bit here, back in November, in this thread.

    BOTTOM LINE: It's crucial for the reader to know and understand that not all institutions that use the .edu gTLD in their web site URLs are legitimate. In fact, many less-than-wonderful and even downright bad institutions use them. As Alan correctly pointed-out in that other thread, "[t]here are scores of them that actually have this [domain name] suffix."

    Educause, the agency that decides who gets to use the .edu gTLD, has only relatively recently changed its policy such that only institutions that have been accredited by agencies approved by the US Deptartment of Education may be issued .edu domain names. Prior to that policy change, not only did perfectly legitimate institutions have .edu domain names, but many institutions that are barely better than diploma mills -- or, in many cases, pretty much are diploma mills or, as Alan called them in that other thread, "the lowest degree-sales scammer" -- had them as well. And Educause has -- and foolishly and unecessarily, in my opinion -- "grandfathered-in" those "degree-sales scammer" and still allows them to use the .edu gTLD... a huge mistake, in my opinion, but it is what it is.

    So, let the buyer beware, as they say. Search for a given institution's .edu domain if you want, but never assume that it's legitimate just because it has one!

    One thing you can do, though, is use the date that the .edu domain was originally registered as an indicator of legitimacy. Any .edu domain first registered (or, to use Educause's term, "activated") after October 29, 2001 will almost certainly belong to a legitimate institution that almost certainly would not be a diploma/degree mill; and that's because it was on that date that Educause changed its policy and stopped issuing .edu domains to institutions that were not accredited by agencies approved to do so by the US Department of Education.

    To see when a given .edu domain was originally registered (activated), one need only look it up in Educause's WHOIS database at:At the very bottom of any WHOIS record are the dates of original activation of the domain, as well as its most recent update, as in:
    • Domain record activated: 31-Mar-1994
      Domain record last updated: 17-Sep-2001
    In the above example, the .edu domain was registered before Educause's policy change. Therefore, it's possible that its owner may be a less-than-wonderful institution; and, therefore, additional research may be required in order to determine if it's a diploma mill or is truly legitimate.

    However, had the date information been something more like this:
    • Domain record activated: 28-Nov-2001
      Domain record last updated: 26-Aug-2004
    then one would be virtually assured that the institution was legitimate because the date of activation is after Educause's policy change date of October 29, 2001.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2005

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