Trying to answer one common objection

Im wanting to address a question that keeps coming up.
The question about how to tell the difference between what is a real school and what is a mill . If an adequate answer cannot be obtained, the question remains a serious stumbling block for unaccredited schools.


My job has a similiar question that I think is germane:

How do I know what teachers to hire?

Stay with me on this for awhile

I operate with the presupposition that college hours and degrees differ so much in rigor, they are like a high school degree, almost meaningless. Why? Personal experience for one. I shared on another thread that I have taken classes that required no work, attendance and class participation(ie talking) were what the grade was based on. I have credits that fit this criteria from many schools(which I would name if pressed but its not really the point, just wanted to get my views out there)

The prospective teachers graduated from RA schools, have high GPA's(very few under 3.0) and wonderful references. Sure there are some exceptions, but post a elementary job and watch 125-150 people apply.
The problem is "duds and studs". We wasted a year of a childs life by hiring some simply awful people in the past, might I add with high gpa's, great references etc.

Our frustration with finding out the difference between the duds and studs led to some changes:

1. We implemented an aptitude test to assess content knowledge.
Any employer could do this.

2. The real decisions lie in how they conduct themselves during a reformated interview process. It is now very challenging and often shows who can and cannot process quickly.

3. We ask for portfolio's. Evidence of their accomplishments in college. Believe me, RA or not, the difference in their quality is astounding.

4. Word of mouth. We have a network of people who when they recommend someone, their judgement is to be trusted.

aptitude test-knowledge
interview boot camp-communication skills
portfolio-work sample
Word of mouth


All of these could be used to tell the difference between a grad from a diploma mill and a "real unaccredited school" as well.

BH

 

The answer is Professional development.

Education and training are part of Professional Development.


What about Teacher Credential?

Prospective teachers need to learn how to teach and don't they get visitations from good practicing educators that evaluate their performance?

Teachers take life long CEU classes in order to earn more and keep their credentials.

The issue is motivating teachers - in the State of CA the Governor wants to reward teachers not by their seniority but by their performance.

Don't prospective teachers has to learn how to teach and don't they get visitations from good practicing educators that evaluate their performance?

Just like in many places of employment there has to be competition and ways to advance.

I wouldn't blame the education system that trained the teachers.

I would address the issues of administrative burrocrats that are not allowing our teachers to teach.

 

All of these could be used to tell the difference between a grad from a diploma mill and a "real unaccredited school" as well.


I understand your comment, but what does this have to do with the teaching profession?

Holders of unaccredited degrees (whether from valid schools or not) are not eligible to teach in any district that I know of.

All teaching positions I have ever seen require an accredited bachelor's degree, and many require a post baccalurete certification as well.

I have noticed that more and more teaching jobs also require portfolios, academic references,

 

aic712,
What I am saying is that the same techniques we use to assess the worth of qualified applicants from ra schools are the same techniques that could be used to tell the difference between grads from unaccredited schools and diploma mills.

These techniques are helpful in determining quality, when the degree itself means little. That is my point.
BH

 

What if degree holder is qualified person and pass the test, yet the degree is from the mill.

On what level will that person be tested, undergrad, grad post grad?

If the respected teacher is a RA BA graduate and MA - milled?


Learner

 

I appreciate your position, but I will try to explain the difference the way that I have come to see it over time. It is perfectly fine to use your methods for hiring someone for a position, however, that should have nothing to do with the granting of degrees. Personally, I think people should be hired on their abilities and knowledge more so than their formal education, but that is just my opinion.

With that said, what I have come to understand is that when some schools are not up to the minimum standards associated with the majority of other school, yet they award the same degrees then they are blurring the line of what those degrees represent. In order for a degree to mean something it should have a standard minimum level. The quality of school A may not be as good as the quality of school B, but each should require close to the same quantity of education in order for each to award a level of academic achievement. If school A requires 40 courses and school B requires 5 exams and a paper then school B is very substandard to school A. If school C only requires a resume/application and an essay to also award the same degree then school B and especially school C are blurring the level academic achievement, and short-circuiting the normal standards.

I hope this makes sense.

 

plcscott
I dont disagree with what you are saying.
I feel employers can and should better evaluate potential employees and those means to do so are available to people who must differentiate between graduates of degree mills and unaccredited schools.
Thank you for your response
BH

 

I certainly agree with you that employers should do better job evaluating employees, however, some or maybe even most of these unaccredited schools and diploma mills do a great job at masquerading as universities and are set up to fool potential employers and sometimes even their costumers/students. Most who frequent these forums know enough to distinguish the good from the bad, but I doubt many others do.

 

plcscott,
I do see what you are saying.
I think that part of our perspective, I know from attending job fairs that other district administrators feel the same frustration, is that many accredited universities are
'masquerading as universities and are set up to fool potential employers ".
Example, inflated GPA's for teachers who do quite poorly on our content based test, glowing recommendations from all supervisors, assurance that they are educating students to prepare them to be 21st century educators, etc etc.

I am not sure what the difference would be from an unaccredited school, I do not interview graduates, for teaching positions, from anything but ra schools. I did interview a couple of great para applicants from a aabc college, neither accepted but instead became educators for private schools.

We are frustrated and it occured to me that the same methods we use, others could, perhaps not.

thank you
BH

 

I'm one of those who has been asking that question and I'm glad to see a thread devoted to discussing it.

Are we assessing the credibility of non-accredited schools, or individual job candidates?

I suppose. But it would be difficult and probably unrealistic to create a test battery that covers an entire university curriculum. Credible universities already perform this function. Why duplicate the university's work?

Besides, this doesn't really address the original question: How do we assess non-accredited schools? I mean, a competent self-educated candidate might sport a degree-mill degree. If the candidate tests well, does that justify our assuming that all of the rest of the degree-mill's graduates are competent?

My remarks above apply to this suggestion too.

Again, doesn't this translate into expecting the employer to replace the university? What value does a university degree retain in these circumstances? Why bother earning one at all?

This is either the best suggestion or the worst, depending.

We need to remember that we are talking about judging schools here, not individuals. So what we need is word of mouth about the institution, not a particular graduate.

We also need to recognize the fundamental fact that every "university", no matter how bogus, can generate testimonials. People routinely lie when it's in their interest to deceive, it's as simple as that.

But on the other hand, some word of mouth can be very convincing. When I'm looking for evidence of a mystery school's credibility, I look for positive remarks from credible sources in the professional and scholarly communities.

I'm even more interested in uncovering tangible things like research collaborations or citations of significant work done at the questioned university.

Of course, in order to judge a school's professional reception, we have to be knowledgeable about these specialized professional communities and about the school itself.

That suggests that non-accredited schools might have most utility in specialized applications where people have the knowledge and background to judge.

 

Bill,
Your clarification about assessing individuals and institutions is a powerful point for me. It is not conducive to a discussion board, but I will have to ponder that. At this point, I would say...both.
We are assessing both.

I suppose I see individuals abilities as being influenced by the institution. They are a reflection of the schools worth. Reflection....not the sum total. I do not ,based upon my personal and professional experiences, give much weight to a degree itself.
Legally I have to only hire RA grads but my opinion is that colleges degrees are as subjective and meaningful as an A in high school. Depends on what is being taught, the teacher, the rigor, etc. I am refering to only accredited schools at this point, I have never attended an unaccredited school or been able to hire anyone but an ra grad. Im getting a little off-topic but am trying to convey my thoughts..
Your points about testimonials are well taken. They are powerful but capable of being twisted.

It just seems to me that the same means we use to decide which ra grad to hire apply to the difference between an unaccredited grad and a purchaser of a diploma from a degree mill.
I know you and others give weight to the degree itself, perhaps if I had experienced business or computer coursework and grads I would be thinking differently........
thank you
BH