Educational Elitism

I came to this website looking for information about DL programs, and thanks to a few people I found the information that I needed. What I also found were a whole bunch of educational elitists. People who believe that those with degrees (but not ALL degrees) are superior and more deserving than others.

I have often suspected that this type of bigotry exsisted, but until now I was not certain of it. I wonder how these so called educated people would feel if things were reversed.

Because I too have felt the bigotry on this board. I have decided that I will become prejudiced also, but in the opposite direction. What does this mean you ask?? It means that I will discriminate against anyone WITH an accredited degree... Afterall I am a SVP, I regularly hire executives, directors and managers.... So from now on if a resume comes across my desk unless it has lots of experience in the role that I'm hiring for, the applicant doesn't stand a chance.... If they just got out of school with their BS/BA or MBA, unless they have experience, in the trash it goes (or they can do entry level work until they get some experience).... What if it's a degree from KW vs Harvard?? if the KW degree has experience and the Harvard does not then KW wins... I have traders working on the floor who are mult-millionaires and a high school diploma, I trust their market knowledge and instincts more than ANY inexperienced MBA.....

To those who claim that experience does not equal degree, IT DOES NOW!!

 

Boy, are you arrogant!

Experience does not equal a degree. Degrees do not equal experience. If you are hiring people and you do not know that, maybe you don't deserve your position (unless you hire experienced and well-credentialled HR person to assist you)!

 

Wow Michael, you have just come up with a new theory - something I would call 'Reverse screening theory'. Can I quote you on that for my Royal Chartered PhD?

Cheers,

George

 

I've been here since the inception of the board, and that's simply not true. The great majority of members sincerely want to help people attain their educational goals, and I think we've been very successful in doing that.

Good for you. You'll most likely end up with sub-standard employees, while your "rejects" will be snatched by other companies. Good business strategy.

 

Michael73:

Let me help you out with something that it took me a little while to grasp that I mostly learned from this site. A degree is a level of academic achievement, and it is totally separate from work experience. That does not mean that education is better than experience when it comes to job performance. I can tell you from my personal experience of running a business for 10 years that experience in the field of work that I am in is much more important. However, there are fields where education is probably equal to or even more important.

There is no doubt that people learn practical knowledge from experience, and much of that knowledge can and should be used to get college credit. The problem comes from how some schools, and especially so called diploma mills evaluate, assess, and verify this experience. If it is done properly then there will be little doubt that the student has the knowledge required to receive the credit.

Another problem that many here will point out is the standards associated with degrees. For a degree to have a proper definition it should have minimum standards associated with it. When a person gets a degree by sending in an application or resume and money then that person did not meet the same minimum standard or level to achieve the degree. This is also true of substandard schools that do not share the minimum standards associated with all of the accredited schools. If Joe Public only does 1/3 of the work or only receives 1/3 of the credits that are usually associated with a degree then he has not met the same standard as John Civic who may have attended school for four or more years to meet that standard. It is kind of like saying you ran the NYC marathon when you left of start line and ran a short cut to the finish line and only went around 5 miles instead of the whole 26. If all real schools require certain standards, but other schools do not have anywhere near those standards then the people that use the other schools are bypassing the standards and short circuiting the process whether they worked hard at it or not.

Finally, as to the arrogance of some on this forum. That is something that you just have to learn to live with around here. There are some very nice helpful people, and then there are some that entertain themselves by trying to humiliate others. It is that way everywhere, and you just have to learn to live with some of the bull and bickering. There are favorites here that get by with more than others just like there are favorites that get by with more than others on other forums. I can assure you this though, there are no other DL forums that you will get as much information from, so my advice is to stick around, read, learn, and try to stay out of the little personal battles. It is hard to do sometimes!

 

Educational Prestige in DL?

I don't think a distance learning board is where you find educational elitism. DL is by it very nature "democratic" and populist. No one here is kidding themselves that any DL degree is going to have the prestige of top flight B&M schools. It is about new and effective means of educational delivery.

 

I recruit analytical chemists. HND (Higher National Diploma - UK) as a minimum usually a bachhelors degree. However it is experience of being an analytical chemist that I look for and conduct stringent technical interviews. I wouldnt go so far as to say I would not recruit someone because they had a higher degree but it doesnt really gain anyone any plus points. Its in general irrelevant. Experience is what I want. New people brought in at the bottom are evaluated for the way they think and approach problems as that is the most important quality they will possess. Good analysts all think in certain ways. Its easier to teach use of new tecniques and theories than to teach thinking and approach.

In my field a taught Masters I would view as equal to a years experience in the right post in industry. Its the nature of the post thats important. A development lab being better than a quality control lab. But masters equal to 1 year in development seems reasonable. Gives the theory and can be useful but any working analyst worth his salt would have learned the theory over time anyway. A better clarification would be 2 years experience = 1 year + masters.

PhD's are wierd as an analyst. You cant really get one. We have 4 in my Dept. One of each kind.

1. Awarded for publication or for submiaaion of previous work carried out in industry. Very very rare and frowned upon here as not being a proper way to award PhD's. This I view as very worthwhile. proof of ability and difficult to do so shows perserverence. Snap these people up if you can find them - which isnt easy I've only met 1.

2. Awarded for work carried out part time at work. Very difficult again to do especially evenings at the local uni. Shows perserverence ability etc as well as quality of work. Again recruit these people if you can, I've met 2 in my whole carreer, 1 is my current boss.

3. Start a PhD in synthetic organic chemisty and have it go completely pear shaped. Spend 3 years doing analysis to find out why. Worth more than the 3 years experience but its swings and roundabouts. Worth recruiting

4. Do a PhD in a completely irrelevant field. Does teach you some report writing and interdisciplinary stuff but why on earth should I view this as much of an advantage except in a tie for the position. Comes with one huge disadvantage. Automatic assumption that PhD holder is better than everyone else in the lab 9/10 of whom dont have a doctorate and therefore continual demands for promotion and inability to see that they dont actuallty know anything. This applies to EVERY PhD holder in this category that I have ever worked with.

Ok steps off soap box.

I am in a specialist field though so my comments are probably not universal.

just thought of

5. PhD in analytical chemisty. These are usually a misnomer as they are more usually to do with designing and building one kind of new instrument rather than using it for analysis. Strange one this. very very useful as a specialist in that one piece of kit but pointless if you dont have use it. However, wierdly dont suffer from PhD arrogance (well the 2 I've worked with anyway) but have shown ability to think etc so worth recruiting prob equivalent to 4-5 years experience if you actually use that one instrument or 1-2 if you dont.

 

Discriminate all you want. Your company is not the only company in the world. BTW, where and what is KW?

 

Re: Re: Educational Elitism

My sentiments exactly. I will be sure to not apply to your company.

Judging from the tone of your post, I would judge that you must work for a "non-accredited" school like KW and are just putting up rubbish in this forum to validate your school. Or perhaps you were duped into getting a non-RA degree or completely unaccredited one and are now trying to make yourself feel better about it.

In any case, your statements are unfounded and I challenge you to search the database of this site and quote and cite all the instances you see to substantiate your claims of "bigotry."

Perhaps if you had the sense to get an education, you would have the skills necessary to complete such a task.

 

Dave750gixer:

Thanks for a most interesting post! The taught master's is worth about a year of specialized experience, then? That sounds about right.

You didn't give us any notion as to how you would count a research master's degree. Do you ever see them?

 

Kennedy-Western University(sic)

 

Looking at all this and my experience on here, I think the main problem is with someone who has good experience but does not the degree to match it.

In this world, people are really distinguished base on their aptitude but its not the case in reality. What do I mean? I mean someone can be very good at a specific type of job without any training whatsoever. Another person gets all the training and can pass the exam but never able to apply the knowledge..

Someone brought up the argue earlier this week that experience does not count as academic learning. That to me is the biggest problem on this forum and goes against the basis of TESC and other schools.

My position then relative to North America, is to have some common national qualification framework such as in other English speaking developed countries that allows a person to prove that they deserve full recognition. It does have to be a degree actually, as long as it says this person meets the requirement for the profession then thats fine.. Actually just having a degree will not be enough either.

 

Re: Re: Re: Educational Elitism

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Thank you for making my point for me Bullwinkle...

I'm glad that you won't be interviewing with my company. To be safe, how about avoiding any Fortune 500 financial services firms in the northeast.... That will guarantee that you don't end up trying to work for me....Perhaps if you had the sense to get an education, you would have the skills necessary to complete such a task. [/QUOTE][/B]

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Educational Elitism

[/B][/QUOTE]

First off, it's BINKWILE .

Second, I am attacking your argument. You say that there is a lot of "bigotry," or "discrimination" found amongst the users in this site and you think we seem to place a higher standard on those with an education rather than experience and you will now do a "reverse discrimination" to what all I can figure would be to "even the playing field."

On the contrary, I feel that it is of the overwhelming majority of posts on this site that show that both are equally held in high regard. Ergo, I am not attacking you for being "uneducated." I am calling you a liar, and your demeanor comes off as though you ARE educated and represent an "institution" like Kennedy Western University, or perhaps have a vested interest. You used verbiage similar to their sales pitch, where "experience is better than education," as well as now claiming that you work for a "fortune 500 company."

If really do work for such a company, I will be sure to figure out which one it is by seeing which one files for bankruptcy in a few years for filling its positions with KWU graduates.

Finally, you are avoiding my remark: Find, quote, and reference a substantial number of examples of "educational elitism" on this site and then present them, as would anyone with some form of college writing skills would, and prove your point.

 

Stated less aggressively, that apparently means that people here think that education is valuable and that they don't approve of degree mills.

In reality, while I think that most people here do oppose degree mills, I doubt if anyone who posts to Degreeinfo thinks that a person with a degree is always superior to one without, or that people without formal educations don't often accomplish more than those with them.

Personally, I place great value on education but happily admit that most of the education that people typically encounter takes place outside a classroom.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you do have hiring responsibilities, your responsibility is to the firm, not merely an occasion for venting your personal frustration with Degreeinfo.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Educational Elitism

[/B][/QUOTE]

When you write your memo to your board of directors announcing your new policy or when you announce your policy at the next stockholders meeting please let us know the response.
Jack

 

My, my, my...... Someone woke up with a wedgie.

While I have seen some school elitism (my school has prettier colors than yours, or my school has better parchment for diplomas, or as a person with a Sanford MBA said- You have a working man's MBA- as opposed to what I haven't a clue), I have seen many folks in the forums really want to help people out and make their experience good and worthwhile.

You can do all the sabre rattling you wish. You are also allowed to base your hiring on anything you want. Frankly, it's no sweat off my nose.

However, all your knee jerk, emotional outburst did was to make people wonder where they should NOT send their resumes. Believe me, I would be more than happy to exclude your company- as a whole- from any job hunt I might consider. Fortunately, I'm self employed and really not in the market for a new job, but why not tell us the name of your company. This way you won't be innudated by resumes you won't use.

Sheesh, and I thought the apex of executive arrogance was in Silicon Valley!

 

Re: Educational Prestige in DL?

I disagree with that. What if you earn a distance learning degree for a school like University of London, Duke University, or Columbia University? I think most people would be very impressed with a DL degree from one of these schools.