Hallmarks of non-U.S. degree legitimacy

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by DesElms, Aug 5, 2004.

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  1. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    This subject has been attempted in other threads, but the conversation always seems to go off in other directions and the original intent of the thread sometimes gets lost. (Not a complaint, so much... just an observation. What can I say.)

    So, to the degree that it is even possible with the members of this august body who (including myself) sometimes steer these threads away from their original purposes with all the thoughtful and useful but nevertheless off-topic side chatter, I ask this group to answer the following:

    What, precisely, are the things -- the hallmarks, if you will -- of a non-U.S. degree which would make it legitimate and acceptable in the U.S.? If one were writing a piece of U.S. legislation that attempted to define foreign degrees in a way that differentiated them from foreign-country diploma mill credentials, how would one do that? What things can we say about non-U.S. degrees that will adequately describe/categorize them such that they may be fairly easily differentiated, prima faci, from bogus foreign diploma mill garbage?

    Please don't rely solely on accreditation within the degree's country of origina (althought, clearly that matters, too). Try to include other factors that would help those in the U.S. determine, easily, if a non-U.S. degree was legit and approximately equivalent to its U.S. counterpart.

    Please, if possible, let's just try to stick with answering the question. I'm not saying that we shouldn't make any side comments at all, but let's see if we can keep this thread as sharp (not to be confused, necessarily, with brief) and to-the-point as possible.

    By the last sentence in my previous paragraph, I'm not making a thinly-veiled complaint or smart-assed remark about anyone in these forums. Rather, I'm simply eagerly and intently seeking really thoughtful and learned commentary that is specific and on-point and doesn't veer too far off-course; and which I am then going to try to condense down into a really good, succinct, final list (which I'll post here, for everyone's benefit, of course) which may (or may not... we'll see) subsequently get used in some legislation that I've been approached to consider writing at some point later on down the road.

    The undeniable fact of the matter is that I just can't think of a better group of more knowledgeable folks from which to solicit such commentary as those who hang around here. So that's what I'm doing. Thanks, in advance, for your help.
     
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'll go first

    Interesting topic! There are a number of things that cause me to doubt a foreign institution.

    For starters, when a university claims to be in a particular country, but has an address and phone number for an office in the U.S., well, that's all the red flag I usually need. If you want to run a university from Gambia, great, no problem! Just physically operate from Gambia if you want me to accept that.

    Rushmore is an example of this. I was willing to give them every benefit of the doubt until they claimed Grand Cayman while operating from Pennsylvania. BUZZZZZZ! Next, please!

    Gregg suggests that accreditation by a country's ministry of education shouldn't be prima facia evidence of legitimacy, or at least regional accreditation equivalence. I guardedly agree, although I think that such ministries should be given the benefit of the doubt until they demonstrate incompetence or malfeasance.

    There are a few countries that have or are starting parastatal accreditation bodies of their own, separate from the ministry. The University Council of Jamaica is one current example. Trinidad is starting one as well. I think that's a positive sign so long as it's done correctly.

    Speaking of the Caribbean, something that always annoys me is when a university refers to itself as being in the "British West Indies." That's fine for Montserrat, Turks & Caicos, BVI, the Caymans, and Anguilla -- and only those five places. However, if it's in a country long since independent of Britain, e.g. St. Kitts, it's a transparent attempt to falsely imply association with the UK. Anything like that is a non-starter with me.

    (Claiming to be in the "British Commonwealth" is even worse, since there's no longer any such thing, the name having changed to "Commonwealth of Nations".)

    I'm sure I'll think of more, but that will do for a start. :)

    -=Steve=-
     
  3. philosophy

    philosophy New Member

    reply

    "Someday I will find me a shoeffer and a long limousine, E-O-11."
     
  4. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    I would say that the question is a little confusing, because it seems to imply that foreign degrees are either "legitimate and acceptable in the U.S." or are "foreign-country diploma mill credentials." As I have mentioned elsewhere, I think it’s quite possible for a foreign degree to be legitimate, relevant and appropriate in its country of origin, but NOT acceptable in the U.S. The needs of a developing country are not the same as those of the United States.

    The University of Warwick at one time made their internal postgraduate admissions guide available on the web (perhaps inadvertently). This guide was fascinating because it listed the various degrees available in different countries and whether they should be considered equivalent to U.K. undergraduate degrees. The degrees from many developing countries were listed as equivalent only to U.K. secondary school qualifications (for purposes of postgraduate admissions in the U.K.). This does not mean that these degrees are not legitimate -- indeed, they are most likely perfectly legitimate in the country of origin. The curricula for these degrees may indeed cover in depth many areas relevant for the workforce in the originating developing country, but not relevant for postgraduate work at Warwick.

    So in my opinion, no foreign degrees should be acceptable without detailed evaluation of their appropriateness for their proposed use in the United States. In principle, this is the role of the credential evaluators (NACES members). But it’s clear from the stories one hears here (and formerly on AED) that NACES does not provide the necessary oversight. In my opinion, we need to have some way to accredit credential evaluators to better ensure consistency in evaluating foreign degrees against U.S. standards.
     
  5. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    I think that oxpecker has raised some important issues. It seems clear that foreign degrees require evaluation (please keep in mind that in this global economy, this works in both directions). However, how many times does a particular degree, a particular degree program, a particular school need to be evaluated before someone is willing to grant the equivalency. You see, when I'm talking about "foreign schools" I'm talking about the U of L or the U of Melbourne or Saskatchewan or Stellenbosch or a dozen others that have been mentioned on this forum. Clearly there are a number of questionable schools that receive much attention on this forum. Are these the schools at which this thread is directed? Are you questioning degrees from Oxford? From Heidelberg? From Kyoto? In this segment of the group labled "foreign universities" aren't you asking for the wheel to be reinvented? I'm all for "equivalency" but the term "foreign degree" needs to be more tightly defined.
    Jack
     
  6. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    IMO it comes down to where is the program being "marketed". If a school is located in country X, but only looks for students in country U, then it raises a big red flag in my mind. The problem comes in where the program being marketed is by a larger organization, that only has applicability in U and not X (an example would be some of the Oz uni's overseas programs).

    But if a school sells it self as being in a small isolated country and predominately markets itself in a major country and does not have (or only very very few) students from it's host country I would find it questionable.
     
  7. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I do so love clear-headed thinking. Thanks, so far, everyone. Excellent stuff.

    Let me see if I can refine the question a little...

    Oxpecker was dead-on in his valid-in-the-U.S. versus valid-in-country-of-origin analysis. Good points.

    And I'm glad he made them because it helps me to help you all keep the focus where it needs to be...

    Remember that my purposes are to find a way to define an "acceptable" non-U.S. credential -- a definition that may end-up in legislation. Think in those terms. If I were drafting legislation for a given state -- like Oregon, for example -- that attempted to define what foreign credentials would be, prima faci, "acceptable," how would I write such a definition?

    Would I refer to governmental blessings and, if so, do I accept all of them or do I try to list the ones we trust and declare all others untrustworthy? Do we just not even try and write into the statute that before the degree may be used in the state it must first be assessed by an NACES-affiliated assessor? Is there an international accreditor who thinks like U.S. regional accrediting agencies and rates similarly? What?
     
  8. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Hi Gregg - It's clear that you've asked some good questions and it's equally clear (to me, anyway) that there are not yet any nice, well defined, unambiguous answers. This bumps up against a favorite topic of mine, global ethics. Essentially, this is the idea that there are ethical standards that everyone can sign onto. Any sort of global or universal standard will be difficult to establish as each entity seeks to protect it's own interests. It is a worthy topic and a worthy goal but I believe that it is a long-term goal. I'd suggest that there are some international corporations, who hire from around the world, who might have some very valuable things to say on this subject. They recruit from an international pool of applicants and probably have a very "no bullshit" set of standards. I'd bring them to the table.
    Jack
     
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Oxpecker was dead-on in his valid-in-the-U.S. versus valid-in-country-of-origin analysis. Good points.

    While I agree different communities have different needs, I'm not sure I agree that it's okay for the same degrees from different places to substantively differ. Knowledge is the same anywhere on the planet. A person with a PhD in Sociology should have made a noticeable contribution to the body of sociological knowledge whether through an institution in Chicago or Chittagong.

    What I mean to say is that I'm concerned that developing world schools will be held to a lower standard than others, and I disagree that lower expectations are called for.

    Remember that my purposes are to find a way to define an "acceptable" non-U.S. credential -- a definition that may end-up in legislation. Think in those terms.

    Well, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I don't think that it's possible to create a flowchart that ends in either "degree mill" or "legitimate institution" -- whether for foreign schools or U.S. ones. I think that it's possible to come up with guidelines that include lists of traits of mills and real schools, but it ultimately must remain the decision of the affected party, since there are cases in which people could disagree in good faith.

    Would I refer to governmental blessings and, if so, do I accept all of them or do I try to list the ones we trust and declare all others untrustworthy? Do we just not even try and write into the statute that before the degree may be used in the state it must first be assessed by an NACES-affiliated assessor?

    I think it would be very helpful if there were a disinterested organization that produced an internationally respectable list of legitimate accreditors, ministries of education, evaluators, and the like.

    I know there are publications that American evaluators of foreign transcripts use, but I'm not sure where they get them or how good they are. Anyone?

    Is there an international accreditor who thinks like U.S. regional accrediting agencies and rates similarly?

    Not institutionally. AACSB does it for business, and a few others for various types of programs, but that's it.

    -=Steve=-
     
  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Gregg, are you considering drafting legislation (or at least concrete guidelines)? If so, can you give us a working list of items you want to include?

    -=Steve=-
     
  11. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I hvae been asked (by whom I can't say... at least not yet) to think about what would be involved and to consider doing so sometime down the line. Not immediately. It may well never happen... who knows.

    I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me exactly what you're asking. Can you expand a bit? By "a working list of items you want to include," what, precisely, do you mean?
     
  12. ashton

    ashton New Member

    Mutual Recognition

    In at least one case, a CHEA recognized accreditor, the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, has signed an accord with corresponding organizations from other contries, recommending that some programs accredited by any one of the organizations be recognized in all the countries where the various organizations are based. It is quite possible that similar accords exist for other fields of study.

    I have simplified the situation; see http://www.washingtonaccord.org/
    for details.

    If I were drafting legislation about degree recognition, I would facilitate this kind of arrangement.

    I would also be careful to have harmony amongst all the state agencies in the degree-recognition business. It wouldn't do to have the education department say a certain degree is satisfactory for teacher licensure, and have an office of degree authorization say the very same degree can't be clained.
     
  13. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    When John, Tom, Mariah, and I were co-writing Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning, we drew straws (or something) and I ended up doing the accreditation appendix. I'm a big believer in the concept of GAAP, but I/we wasn't/weren't exactly in love with the theoretically reliable international handbooks at that point, so we went with a country-by-country approach instead. I don't have a copy of the book in front of me, but for those of you who do have it, it'll be easy enough to find. It's just two pages, though, so a more detailed treatment might be in order; maybe some intrepid soul (not me) could do a more thorough job in exchange for free advertising on Degreeinfo, or something equally worthwhile.


    Cheers,
     
  14. bo79

    bo79 New Member

    WOW! This is a very interesting post. I know a lot of people that work in human resources in Canada, and UK degrees is a subject that I have talked to them about a few times. The impression that I got from the conversations is that HR people in Canada look at degrees from major UK schools like University of London, Oxford, and Cambridge the same way they would look at degrees from major Canadian schools like Toronto, Queens, or McGill.
     
  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    What resources are already available?

    Which handbooks and other resources are out there, who publishes them, and which are widely used by foreign transcript evaluators?

    For example, for the Caribbean, I've heard that NACES members accept as legitimate any school whose credites transfer to the University of the West Indies, whereas AACRAO looks on the list of members of the Association of Commonwealth Universities. I don't know if this is so; it's just grapevine.

    -=Steve=-
     
  16. gmail

    gmail member

    legitimate Foreign degree

    My main hallmark for legitimacy remains the recognition by the Government or the regulatory entity of the Foreign Country.

    I know that you will object that Liberia, Dominica approve not reputable institions, like SRU.

    I suggest to follow the Law and accept as legitimate Universities that are recognized authorized by Foreign governments, which have educational treaties with the US, like the European Union.

    I think that it could be a safer approach.

    Regards
    GMail
    The Diploma Mill Hunter
     
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    A Dominican patriot responds

    "I know that you will object that Liberia, Dominica approve not reputable institions, like SRU."

    Excuse me?! What exactly does Dominica have to do with SRU or any other mill? The only institutions of higher education Dominica has ever approved are Ross University School of Medicine and its own Dominica State College, the public community college. Neither is disreputable.

    "The Diploma Mill Hunter"

    Try hunting in the right places. :mad:

    -=Steve=-
     
  18. agreeable

    agreeable member

    I would like to see a thread that questioned what standards are acceptable to recognize US degree in other countries!

    I would think that the UK and Australia, for example, would regard the first year of a US undergraduate degree equivalent to the last year of High School in those countries.

    And I would also suggest that many universities would have their doubts about the rigor of a Ph.D. degree thesis that only runs to about 160 pages (40,000 words)-equivalent to many Master's degrees in the UK and Australia with course work. Oh yes, this is accompanied by a load of course work subjects, but really, how much more can you learn about 'Strategic Management' or 'International Law' , for example,at Bachelor, Master's and doctoral levels?

    And we are yet to see Australia permit any university that operates without B&M, although several of its universities have excellent distance learning courses from Bachelor to doctoral levels.

    What I am saying is I question whether US higher education is the benchmark for the rest of the world.
     
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Wasn't there another thread recently where it was reported that Germany doesn't consider an American MBA valid unless the school has AACSB accreditation?

    -=Steve=-
     
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Perhaps.
    But it is a good enough benchmark for foreign degree recognition WITHIN THE USA. The only workable benchmark, I might add.
     

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