medical schools

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by deanhughson, Jul 6, 2004.

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  1. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Two medical schools have popped up in England

    St. Christopher
    http://www.stchris.edu/about.htm

    Kigezi
    http://www.kigezi.edu/

    Neither is chartered in the UK (St. Christopher is chartered in
    Senegal and Kigezi in Uganda) and are not recognized by GMC as UK
    medical schools but consumers from the US are coming to them,thinking
    that they are getting the prestige of a British medical school.

    One even based its school in Cambridge.

    THe problem is that these schools being so far away from where they are chartered lack the supervision of their own authorities. The GMC, Englands licensing authority, has no authority over these schools. Recently the following article appeared in a NJ newsaper about St. chris for instance:

    http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1080641518255060.xml

    SPC partnership with med school hastily called off

    St. Christopher's diplomas said to be meaningless in N.J.

    Tuesday, March 30, 2004

    By Ken Thorbourne
    Journal staff writer

    A partnership between St. Peter's College in Jersey City and an
    overseas medical school was killed last night, two weeks after it was
    announced, amid mounting concerns that its graduates would not be
    recognized as medical doctors by the state of New Jersey.

    <copyrighted material removed by moderator>

    Ken Thorbourne covers education. He can be reached at [email protected].
     
  2. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    We have received a request for evaluation from St. Christophers, which should be done next week sometime.
     
  3. stchrisstudent

    stchrisstudent New Member

    I am a student at St. Christopher's College of Medicine and I would like to stand up for my school and say that I believe that I have recieved an excellent education. I was able to pass my boards easily on the first try and when placed next to US students of a similar year, my clinical knowledge is on the same level as theirs.

    As far as accreditation, we are fully accredited. Not by the UK, but by Senegal.

    THis is absolutely untrue. I have never met a student at my school, which runs currently at around 800 - 900 students, who thought St. Christopher's was a british school when they arrived. Sure, there maybe one or two I don't know, but the overwhelming vast majority are fully informed upon arrival.

    I am glad that Mr. Contreras and Oregon is evaluating St. Christopher's themselves rather than relying on the "Micheal Moore" type journalism that dean hughson is known for.
     
  4. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    We have received the application for review from St. Christopher's and expect to get to it in the next day or two. The standard that it must meet is to demonstrate that it has the foreign equivalent of U.S. accreditation. Therefore its status in the UK is largely irrelevant; we will review its status in Senegal, which is the venue in which it asserts degree-granting authority.
     
  5. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Re: Re: medical schools

    The govt. official responsible for control of medical schools in Senegal is:

    Ministère de l'Education


    DIVISION DU CONTRÔLE MÉDICAL SCOLAIRE

    Télephone : 822 08 59

    Fax :


    Adresse :

    Responsable : M. Malick SEMBENE

    email:[email protected]

    Website is:

    http://www.gouv.sn/ministeres/meducation/service.cfm?sigle=MEN&serv=DCMS
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The American Association of International Medical Graduates has an interesting page on the quasi-British medical schools boasting registrations in jurisdictions thousands of miles away.

    http://www.aaimg.com/list/cambridge.html

    These people actually make site visits to off-shore medical schools and St. Christopher certainly seems to have underwhelmed them:

    Deficiencies
    Section I a,b,c,d,f,g
    Section II b,c,e,f,g,j,k,l
    Section III a,b,c,d,f,h,I,k
    Section IV c, d,f,g,
    Section V b,c,d,e,f,h,j,k,l,m,n
    Section VI a,b,c,d,e,f,g,I,j
    Section VII b,e,f,
    Section VIII e

    St. Christopher has given up the more prestigious environs of Cambridge and moved its operation to the more mundane campus of Luton University, just north of London. Other than downscaling the location, little has changed about this operation. The labs and classrooms are a few rented rooms from the local university and the bulk of the faculty are undergraduate Luton faculty moonlighting or unemployed M.D.'s from former British colonies who are unable to pass the PLAB or practice in the U.K. There are a few Ph.D.'s that are both students and teachers. There are a large number of transfer students from the Dominican Republic and other Caribbean schools, many with a history of failures. The operation in Senegal is virtually non-existent; a call to the Senegal "office" is answered by a local lady with limited English who cannot name any local faculty, or students or describe any teaching activities at the hospital. Although this school only opened in 2000, it advertises US clerkships in 72 "Greenbook" hospitals and board passing rates of 100% in 2000 and 82% in 2001. This type of advertising is not surprising since the promoter is a graduate and former vice dean of Grace University who never completed postgraduate training. St Christopher had a fiscal and credential relationship with the disastrous St. John's University School of Medicine, closed by the Attorney General of Oregon. See http://www.doj.state.or.us/releases/rel072500.htm


    The AAIMG also has information on Kigezi, as well as two newer ones they haven't visited yet, International Medical College of London and London Medical College.

    The AAIMG website deserves attention by anyone interested in off-shore medical schools.

    http://www.aaimg.com/misst.html

    Perhaps Mr Contreras might want to consult with these people.
     
  7. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    to make the issues even murkier AAIMG is a mailbox in Reno...not able to trace them so who knows who they are but their information appears believable....they won't email you back if you email them...some people claim they are a site put up by another school but who knows.....
     
  8. stchrisstudent

    stchrisstudent New Member

    AAIMG

    The AAIMG is a fraud organization and has been known to be such for a long time. Their information regarding deficiencies is grossly inaccurate. Their contact info is a hotmail email address, no phone number or real address. The "president", Dr. Thomas Moore, has never been found to actually exist. The web hosting is from Russia and the only address that has been found for them leads to a retail shop. Plus, their "approval" or "disapproval" of specific schools leads to some glaring inconsistencies. Such as, their glowing review of MUA Nevis (while ignoring MUA belize) is strange when they are banned in Oregon and Michigan. Yet they claim SMU is a terrible school, a claim disprooved by NY state's recent review and approval of that school. There are many other inconsistencies, but all of that is moot when you realize that the AAIMG is not recognized by the state of Oregon:

    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/accreditation.html

     
  9. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    This could get interesting...
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: AAIMG

    Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, I don't know.

    Nevertheless, the AAIMG has posted some rather critical information about St. Christopher that probably should be checked out by anyone charged with approving this school.

    The AAIMG isn't a US Dept. of Education recognized accreditor. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the information they uncover isn't useful.

    I'm sure that Mr. Contreras can figure out the significance of this ODA page himself, since it's his own site that you are citing.

    The problem with these particular international mystery schools (to steal a phrase from one of Mr. Contreras' papers) is that although they operate in Britain, the QAA and the GMC take no interest in them. Theoretically St. Christopher receives academic oversight all the way from Senegal, but it's rather doubtful if that amounts to what Americans understand by the word 'accreditation'. (In the case of medical schools, that means RA and AMA.) Given the wording of the Oregon law, I expect that aspect will be the focus of Mr. Contreras' inquiries. But the kind of stuff the AAIMG posted certainly speaks to the effectiveness of whatever oversight St. Christopher receives and suggests that there might be grounds for concern.

    In the place of conventional accreditation, we have to make do with fragmentary information of questionable reliability and provenence.

    We have anonymous St. Christopher students posting glowing testimonials to internet discussion boards.

    And we have the AAIMG, which may or may not be questionable. The International University of Health Sceinces certainly seems to think that they are a conspiracy generated by some of IUHS' competitors. See (here). But then again, the AAIMG found IUHS seriously deficient, so there's obviously no love lost there.

    Some people do seem to take the AAIMG seriously:

    The ECFMG ws asked about giving graduates of AAIMG approved off-shore medical schools "special status" in the USMLE process. The ECFMG declined to do so, but didn't suggest that the AAIMG was fraudulent.

    http://www.amsa.org/intl/ecfmg.cfm

    Florida State University's Pre-Health Advising Center recommends that prospective off-shore students check out the AAIMG website.

    http://med.fsu.edu/PreHealthAdvising/Spring02.asp

    Cornell's Health Careers application page lists the AAIMG under "alternative routes", quoting them that off-shore medical schools may be less demanding concerning grade averages.

    http://www.career.cornell.edu/HealthCareers/applicationProcess.html?refresh=true&cat_id=83

    Franklin and Marshall link to the AAIMG.

    http://www.fandm.edu/departments/studentacadaffairs/prehealing/foreign.html

    Seton Hall links to them.

    http://artsci.shu.edu/biology/healthprofessions/links.htm

    A presentation at an advisor's conference quotes from the AAIMG.

    http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/resources/health/Foreign%20Medical%20Schools.htm

    None of this proves that the AAIMG isn't totally bogus. Professional educators have proven themselves appallingly clueless on more than one occasion. But it does suggest that it might not be entirely ridiculous to at least check into what the AAIMG has to say.
     
  11. stchrisstudent

    stchrisstudent New Member

    Re: Re: AAIMG

    You are absolutely right, but what it really suggests is that there is such a lack of credible evaluations of foriegn schools that anyone will believe anything being said. If state boards and some US schools have been so quick to believe an anonymous organization with a hotmail address and an imaginary president, than that shows that the US needs to take more of an interest in providing accurate information about these schools to state boards.

    I did not try to give a glowing review of my school. It is not perfect by any strech, but it is also no where near as bad as some make it out to be. They provide a solid education and that is the most important thing IMHO.
     
  12. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    Question for Alan Contreras: Will you get time-and-a-half for all the overtime you are probably going to have to put in chasing this one down? :) It looks as if this school is in several jurisdictions, and is hard to track down.
     
  13. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: AAIMG

    Let's hope Alan can read and write French as i am sure ALL St. Chris students can since the exam for MD's in Senegal is iin French...
     
  14. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    kigezi

    the other school in England (Cambridge of course) is at

    http://www.kigezi.edu/

    It is an Ugandan school.......good luck in finding who is in charge of supervising medical schools.

    think the contact email is [email protected]
     
  15. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: AAIMG

    I agree with you that getting credible evaluations of off-shore medical schools looks extremely difficult. This whole alternative medical school subject looks to me like a major disaster area. That's not reassurning when we are talking about the education of physicians.

    I also agree that state boards and the USMLE people need to take a more skeptical approach to all this. They might start by requiring something more robust from schools than merely appearing on the WHO list. Like the IHU, the WHO simply defers to national authorities. As ably demonstrated by St. Regis, these overseas approvals are not always academically meaningful and sometimes appear to be for sale.

    Personally, my attitude is one of profound skepticism. I suspect that most of the dirt that the AAIMG dishes out on deficient schools is probably justified. Certainly the typical response to it is to attack the AAIMG rather than to show that the questioned school is more than a few rented rooms and an iffy part-time faculty. There are medical schools operating out of people's houses, for heaven's sake.

    But I don't give a lot of weight to the schools that the AAIMG finds satisfactory either. Those schools are still questionable, just a higher grade of questionable.

    I did a WHOIS for aaimg.com and got this:

    Registrant:
    AAIMG
    1802 N. Carson Street
    Carson City, Nevada 89701
    United States
    Registered through: GoDaddy.com Domain Name: AAIMG.COM
    Created on: 02-Nov-99
    Expires on: 02-Nov-06
    Last Updated on: 19-Nov-03
    Administrative Contact:
    Demkin, Andrew [email protected] 60, Moika emb. apt.33 Saint-Petersburg, 90000 RUS
    +7 812 3147397 Fax -- +7 812 3147397 Technical Contact: Demkin, Andrew [email protected] 60, Moika emb. apt.33 Saint-Petersburg, 90000 RUS
    +7 812 3147397 Fax -- +7 812 3147397
    Domain servers in listed order: NS5.SPB.RU
    NS0.XNAME.ORG


    I agree with you and Dean Hughson that the St. Petersburg thing looks extremely fishy.

    Frankly, I'm disgusted with all of this off-shore medical school crap. It puts out a terrible stink.

    One of these international mystery graduates might be useful in an emergency, like a paramedic on steroids, but I would not be comfortable receiving their care unless there were no other option and the choice was no care at all.

    While studying medicine abroad is obviously a legitimate option, I much prefer the credible no-questions-asked medical schools popular with Americans like the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland. But first world medical schools setting up addresses in off-shore accreditation havens or boasting approvals by African countries half the world away send out an odor of putrifaction, in my opinion. I'd call for a doctor, but I fear that they are the ones who are rotten.
     
  16. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    another link

    perhaps this individual could be helpful

    Professor J.P. deV van Niekerk, President, Association of Medical Schools in Africa (AMSA)
    Private Bag X1, Pinelands 7430, Cape Town, South Africa
    Telephone: +27 21 5306520
    Fax: + 27 21 5314126
    Email: [email protected]
     
  17. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    No time and a half, but they pay a review fee as do all applicants. We should have that review done this week.
     
  18. stchrisstudent

    stchrisstudent New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: AAIMG

    While I do understand your reservations and, frankly, had I not been to this school myself, probably would feel the exact same as you do now. However, I do wish to point out a couple of things and get your opinion on them.

    As you have said, St. Christopher's is far from its accrediting body. In fact, it is 4,373 Km or a 5 hour flight away (using an average of 825Km/hr flight speed).

    Firstly, In the US, the LCME has an office in Washington and Chicago. If the DC office is used to evaluate new US schools, then the distance between accreditation office and medical schools would be:

    DC to LA: 3,695Km
    DC to San Fran: 3,743Km
    DC to Seattle: 3,922Km

    The difference in flight time between these flight and the one between london and senegal is only 30 minutes or so.

    Secondly, I wonder if you have heard about the new medical school in Qatar that is a branch campus of Cornell University? Cornell has started a medical school in Qatar and claims that they will be issuing a LCME accredited US MD to the schools graduates. Although Qatar approves of the school, its accreditation will come from the US. The distance between Qatar and NYC is 10,761Km or a 13 hour flight. Also, Harvard Med is starting their own foriegn school in Dubai, UAE. The distance between Boston and Abu Dhabi is 10,708Km.

    With some of these facts, my question is .. All other thing aside, do you think there really is a correlation between distance of accreditation and quality of medical education?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2004
  19. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AAIMG

    Show me where Cornell has made that claim? Qatar medical school is chartered in Qatar and will issue its grads a diploma.
    It is a school for those in the middle east, not Americans who intend to come back to the US....see

    http://med.cornell.edu/qatar/education/medical/overview.html?name1=Curriculum&type1=2Select&name2=Overview&type2=3Active

    Supervision of medical education is taken pretty serious by Cornell on this.,.they are sending professors to Qatar
     
  20. stchrisstudent

    stchrisstudent New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AAIMG

    Cornell has made that claim to students who are applying. I have talked to quite a few Americans who have been accepted and who expect to come back, so it would seem that the school is not entirely for Qataris. There are no medical schools listed in Qatar as far as the ECFMG is concerned.

    ECFMG FAIMER
     

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