SCUPS restores doctoral programs, but...

... they WILL NOT accept credit from other state approved universities. I e-mailed an admissions advisor and asked them why an unaccredited, state approved institution would not accept transfer credit from other unaccredited, state approved institutions and the admissions advisor responded with this seemingly generic, blanket answer:

SCUPS will continue to seek accreditation. This process can take time and we want to make sure we are doing everything by the book when we apply again. SCUPS is committed to offering a meaningful and personally rewarding educational experience for its learners.

If they are continuing to seek accreditation why did they restore their doctoral programs? I recall a recent post where someone pointed out that it was a big money maker for SCUPS. Fine. But, if you are TRULY that interested in gaining accreditiation why restore the doctoral programs. I suppose it can increase their finances, so they'll look like a financially capable school once (if) DETC rolls in again.

 

Perhaps they will seek WASC accreditation?

 

SCUPS, like Taft, is ineligible to apply for WASC accreditation.

WASC requires that any California institution with a law school must first obtain accreditation from the state bar. The state bar will not consider anything but classroom based programs.

The administration at SCUPS seem like nice folks and I was disappointed they didn't make it this time with DETC. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried again at a later date.

 

My assumption is that the accreditation process allows doctoral students currently enrolled to finish their degrees, even if the DETC accreditation process is successful. In other words, the school has nothing to lose by restoring these programs. As they continue their progress toward accreditation they can continue to make money.

To my mind, the better question is: Why would any student want to enroll in a program that was actively moving toward extinction. You already know the school has no commitment to the program. Aside from the obvious, what would be the attraction?
Jack

 

I spoke to someone at SCUPS today and they said that they hoped DETC would accredite PhD programs by the time SCUPS re-applies.

They really have nothing to lose by reinstating the PhD program.

 

CCU did not reinstate their doctoral programs because they still have a shot at accreditation. Century and SCUPS don't, so they're back in the doctorate business. Spin it any way you want, but that is a clear reality.

Failing to gain accreditation now isn't an indicator of their success when and if DETC expands its scope to include doctorates. Just the opposite.

 

However when they fix the problems leading to denial of accreditation, they can again drop the doctorates. They have to wait to apply regardless.

 

Doctoral programs have been the bread and butter of many non-accredited/state approved institutions. It makes perfect sense for them to reinstate the doctoral programs if they are not currently in the running for DETC accreditation.

Tony Pina
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

I don't know. It smacks of a lack of earnestness. Drop the programs in order to meet DETC standards. Fail to meet the standards. Reinstate the programs, just to drop them again? Why not keep them closed and show the DETC the motivation to concentrate on the existing (non-doctoral) programs to get them ready for DETC accreditation?

Getting denied accreditation and thenexpanding the school's scope hardly seems progressive. It is, in fact, quite regressive, moving away from--not towards--accreditation.

It seems a bit "you-won't-let-me-play-so-I'll-take-my-ball-and-leave." Or, "We'll keep selling doctoral programs even though you won't approve us to sell even bachelor's and master's programs." Why ever would DETC reconsider them after such a disengagement?

 

Good point, Rich. It appears that we may have two dynamics working here. First, it has become apparent to institutions like Calfornia Coast that they no longer occupy the innovative (and solitary) position that they did in the 70s and 80s and that they must now compete with distance learning programs at accredited institutions that are becoming more numerous and more affordable. It makes sense for CCU, SCUPS and others to go with a recognized national accreditor that can set them apart from non-accredited schools and diploma mills.

On the other hand, they know their clientele and know that there are authors, pop-psychology television "experts" and others who realize that having "Ph.D." after your name gives you more credibility. There are also those, like Dennis Ruhl, who feel that a non-accredited doctorate will help them achieve their goals.

There is still a substantial market for those who wish to be called "doctor" without having to meet the requirements (or cost) of a regionally accredited institution. If a for-profit institution is faced with a period of time in which it is not allowed to be in the formal accrediting process, then it makes pragmatic sense for it to reinstate its lucrative doctoral programs until it is no longer allowed to do so.

I agree with your views about the ethics of this situation, but I am of the opinion that there are economic reasons behind these institutions seeking accreditation and that their are similar economic reasons for reinstating the doctoral programs.

Tony

 

Tony:

I certainly agree that it is the financial aspect of this business that is driving both the selling of doctoral programs by unaccredited schools and the pursuit of accreditation by some more-established unaccredited schools. The market has blown wide open, making the choice to take a degree from an unaccredited school dubious at best. Thus, I also agree that these market forces are pushing the quality programs (and I guess CCU would fall into that category) to pursue recognized accreditation.

Before it (CCU's bid for DETC accreditation) came up, I used to dismiss the notion of CCU going for accreditation because it wasn't in their business model. When it was being discussed, I suggested that CCU might not give up their lucrative doctoral programs to pursue recognized accreditation. But their bid (and SCUPS') shows that (a) the market has changed, that accreditation is so very necessary now to compete with the many DL schools who have it, and (b) selling doctorates is big business, one to which a school will rapidly return if it is rejected by DETC (see SCUPS and Century). But schools who still have/had a chance when first denied/deferred by DETC (like CCU and Southwest) kept their doctoral programs out. But not SCUPS. To me, this says (a) SCUPS makes big money selling doctorates and (b) they don't have a chance at DETC accreditation in the foreseeable future.

So, we agree. Market forces are afoot, along with the opening up of opportunities for good DL schools to get accredited. This is why it used to make sense to consider a degree from an unaccredited school, but no longer. Wags who can't handle that those who give advice have changed that advice to match this trend are, well, idiots.

 

I accept that I probably am an idiot.

But there are several non-accredited schools that I like. I'd even be willing to recommend them if circumstances warranted.

For example, there's Dharma Realm.

They offer an interesting lineup of courses. See (Here).

In particular, they have created courses around aspects of monastic practice that, as far as I know, are not offered in any other university in the United States. See the (Vinaya) department. Vinaya is the Buddhist monastic Rule and according to Chinese tradition, only monastics may enroll in these classes. I believe that DRBU's (Ceremony and Ritual) department is also unique in this country.

You can study Buddhism at places like Berkeley and Stanford, but Dharma Realm presents it from an entirely different perspective.

I used to know their Chancellor Ron Epstein when I was a student at SFSU. He earned his Ph.D. from UC Berkeley and is a man of total integrity.

Bottom line: This attempt to craft a university curriculum around Chinese Buddhist monastic practice is probably unique in the United States. It may or may not succeed, but it seems to me to be a valid way to approach this religion.

 

Of course not, as you know. The "idiot" comment is directed to those who call it hypocritical that those who may have recommended the idea of attending an unaccredited school before now seldom do. They (the idiots) call such an evolution of thought disingenuous, when, in fact, it represents the changing landscape of DL.

Bill is a champion of legitimate, California-Approved schools. There are many, and it is a good cause. Funny though, that almost none (any?) of them are DL. At least not the ones usually discussed around here.

 

It is also interesting (to me) that these unaccredited schools that Bill Dayson says he likes, seem to do well in his wonderful Google search test. It seems that you can find evidence on the web that they're doing real academic research.

So just for fun I thought that I'd try to do the Bill Dayson Google search test on CCU. CCU has been offering doctorates for years is there any evidence on the web that they are involved in academic research? Is there any evidence that CCU is part of the greater academic research community? This is the first time that I ever tried this search myself (at least that I remember doing). I only glanced through the first 100 hits that Google found. I couldn't find anything. I did find examples of people calling CCU a diploma mill. It's the first time that I ever tried to do this type of search myself but it can't be a good sign when I find many instances of people calling CCU a diploma mill or people questioning the academic credentials handed out by CCU and can't find any discussions/information/announcements/etc that indicate that CCU is part of the academic research community.

The link closest that I saw was http://www.nationalponsi.org/colleges/list_of_colleges-california.htm unfortunately the link to what a cooperative college meant was broken but, I guess CCU cooperated in something that was noncollegiant, hard to tell if it was a marketing move or an academic move on the part of CCU.

I would have to conclude based on just my first Google search that a CCU doctorate is as valuable as a doctorate from Knightsbridge University. Oh ... I guess that explains why someone around here vigorously attacks people that question KU degrees.

 

I can give a couple of examples of CCU graduates with long lists of research published in refereed journals: Marquis P. Vawter Ph.D. , Director of the Microarray Lab at the Univ. Of California-Irvine, and Dennis Daley Ph.D. , Prof. of Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburg School of Medicine. I'm sure there are others but these are two that I'm aware of.

 

Bill Huffman: "I only glanced through the first 100 hits that Google found. I couldn't find anything."


Cehi: Bill, sometime last year, I did a google test of my own ( following the footstep of the lengendary google test leader........Bill Dayson), I found much data that was contrary to what you have indicated. May be what what we are both searching for is obviously different. I will admit that some of the sites that I found back then may be currently non-functional, but I don't know.

As to your conclusion, my view about CCU is much, much different than yours. Obviously, my view is favorable to CCU, based on what I found. By the way, my post regarding my own goodle test last year about CCU entails:
______________________________
cehi
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 184

BillDayson"s Google Test

Over the past few months, Bill Dayson has done an excellent job in utilizing his trademark, "google test", to substantiate the depth of degree utility for CA-Approved Universities. Why am I doing this, I am curious myself as to why I should be spending my time researching CA-approved schools.

I have taken a keen interest in California Coast University (I am not and will not pursue any program with them). I have already an RA doc degree. The result of the google test for CCU Ph.d, D.B.A, and Ed.D degree holders follows.

The long list of alumni with these degrees from CCU was a surprise to me. I wonder why CCU never seek at least, a DETC accreditation until recently.

Bill, I now believe in the "google test". Thank you.

California Coast University Degrees – Alumni

Ph.D. Degree Holders

http://goldey.gbc.edu/faculty_staff/teachers.html Richard Brasefield

http://www.fammed.usouthal.edu/faculty/Adams.htm Martha Adams

http://www.prenhall.com/success/FacultyRes/bios.html Joyce Bishop

http://imtcsamba.hct.ac.ae/qdg/Further%20Ed.htm Awad Osman

http://staff.business.auckland.ac.nz/glorigan Geoffrey Lorigan

http://business.ubalt.edu/Entrepren.../faculty&staff/ George Andrea

http://ubonline.edu/webbach/faculty.html George Andrea

http://www.alohasys.com/staff.htm Dr. Brian C. Stevens

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/announce.html Diane Hooie

http://www.dirige.eslsca.fr/aboutus...ent/faculty.htm Mario Missakian

http://www.bowiestate.edu/psyc-faculty.htm Ron Rudolph

http://www.hlg.edu/Catalog/personnel.pdf Charles W. Stewart III, Vice President for Institutional Advancement

http://www.netmanage.com/company/executives.asp Ron Rudolph, VP, Human Resources

http://www.army.mil/usar/ambassador/states/va.htm Ronald L. Adolphi

http://www.tensilica.com/html/pr_2002_09_23b.html David P. Toombs

http://www.lcsc.edu/business/Staff/GerryR.htm Gerald Ramey

http://www.askthebusinessdoctor.com/aboutus.shtml

http://www.romielittrellpubs.homestead.com/files/CV.htm Romie Frederick Littrell

http://www.mecat-edu.com/about/faculty.htm Bassem Kaissi

http://www.drjohnruss.com/about.html John Russ

http://www.noctrl.edu/academics/dep...ite/faculty.htm Richard Slovacek

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/Business/al...l2001/pope.html Carol Vollmer Pope

http://www.llu.edu/llu/dentistry/de...00/DeptNews.htm Lynn L. McKendry

http://www.argee.net/resume.htm Robert G. Williscroft

http://www.ashland.edu/colleges/education/educf.html Jennifer Humphries-Spencer

http://www.bryant.edu/facultyprofile/bingham_frank.htm Frank Bingham

http://pathology.uthscsa.edu/faculty/sutton.htm Deanna Sutton

http://www.daremightythings.com/team_charlesr.htm Charles G. Roller

http://www.drjet.com/resproj/RESU0103.HTM James Edward Turney

http://www.globalsagegroup.com/sages/bianchin.htm Louis Bianchin

http://www.conted.utulsa.edu/staff/paula.asp Paula Hogard

http://www.mba.athabascau.ca/titan/...8D?OpenDocument Ike Hall

http://pirate.shu.edu/~collinjo/dis...ons/PhDdiss.htm John W. Collins

http://www.palan.org/aboutme/education.htm

http://rome.gcsu.edu:8090/4DCGI/SAC...yDetail/1078523 Robert Lowe

http://web.txwes.edu/psychology/prof_ellison.htm Michael L. Ellison

http://www.txwesleyan.edu/registrar...ad/TRUSTEES.htm Michael L. Ellison

http://www.breyerstate.com/resume-dominick-flarey.htm Dominick L. Flarey

http://www.issm.org/fellows/emerick/ Tracy Emerick

http://www.unlimited-directions.com...nstructors.html J.M. Evosevich

http://www.communitylink.koz.com/se...971226215111939

http://www.lagosforum.com/comment.php?NR=574 Ausbeth Ajagu

http://www.fredonia.edu/business/faculty/ Lisa Walters

http://sonoma.edu/org/ppe/department/business.html Michael Baldigo

http://www.argosyu.edu/campusdetail...lty&campusName='&id=26 Dr. Stephen J. Hoogerbrugge

http://www.profstevens.com/RESUME.htm David Stevens
http://www2.scps.nyu.edu/dyncon/mcg..._facu_a_to.html George Cherubini

http://vax.wcsu.edu/physics/faculty.html Joseph Howells

http://www.nsula.edu/psych-online/faculty.htm Susan Barnett
http://www.msubillings.edu/catalogs/cot/COTch8.html David Gurchieck


D.B.A. Degree Holders

http://www.mdivs.edu/lifeissuescounseling.html Dennis D. Frey

http://www.pimall.com/nais/d-ms.html James Welsh

http://www.accd.edu/nvc/areas/cis/bio/pennington.htm Andy Pennington

http://www.asq-nwi.org/directory.htm Milton Krivokuca

http://www.pueblocc.edu/faculty/ptinst3.htm Robert Watkins

http://www.ciachef.edu/pcabinet/staff_gielisse1.html Victor A. L. Gielisse, C.M.C., C.H.E.

http://www.ctcd.cc.tx.us/ci_personnel.pdf

http://www.nsula.edu/catalogs/ugrad/0102/faculty.pdf
http://www.schipaaconsortium.org/pages/5/ Ron Moore

http://www.cyberhaven.com/businessb...g-books-30.html B. Stoker


Ed.D. Degree Holders

http://www.ccu.edu/catalog/2003-04/...y/affiliate.htm Bonnie K Reiff

http://coen.boisestate.edu/dep/ipt/...y/BErickson.htm Bob Erickson

http://www.hfglendale.org/UserDocs/...d%20Council.htm Mrs. Grace Mendez

http://www.chinatranslate.net/en1/zt/whitehouse06.htm Patricia Hill Williams

http://www.alliance.edu/content.php?action=faculty Jose D. Camacho

http://www.smcks.edu/extranet/adminfac/gov_ug.htm Adam Holden

__________________
Cehi

 

I just did a Google search for the exact phrase "California Coast University", plus the word "microarray". I got a grand total of one hit: Dr. Vawter's UCI bio. See (here).

It's kind of interesting. The guy earned a bachelors in psychobiology at UCSC, a masters in experimental psychology from CSULB and an education masters in counseling psychology from USC prior to his CCU psychology degree.

Now he's director of a laboratory researching "Gene expression in human brain, cell lines, and animal models relevant to complex neuropsychiatric disorders.

Microarray,TaqMan RT-PCR, and Laser Capture Microscopy to examine gene expression. Novel microarray data analyses tools." and so on.

So where was this gentleman exposed to this rather technical material? I'd be willing to bet that CCU has absolutely nothing happening in that area.

I did a Google search for "California State University Long Beach" and "microarray". There were 41 hits, but nothing very exciting, mostly pages that just happened to contain both search terms.

But I did find a couple of interesting things.

There's (this). Here's the manager of a UC San Francisco microarray core facility. The guy has a CSULB Asian studies background and is a former Japanese translater. He earned a San Jose State MBA and worked in pre-meltdown tech marketing. Finally, he only earned a second biology bachelors degree and a biotechnology certificate a couple of years ago from CSU Hayward, in an apparent midcourse career change. He does have a patent to his credit. (I like flexible guys like this.)

(Here's) a UCLA research group, that includes a microarray technician with a bachelors degree from UCLA.

So from all this, I'd guess that universities are setting up microarray facilities as a technical support function, to serve research groups composed of principal investigators, research scientists, post-docs and so on.

But unlike the gentleman at UCSF, the guy at UCI wants a doctorate too. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, but it doesn't really add very much to CCU's scientific reputation.

 

I don't consider those finds indicative of CCU being a member of the greater academic research community. It is a list of people that have CCU degrees. IMHO, there's a huge difference. I've said many times that CCU is possibly the best of the unaccredited general education institutions that specialize in distance learning. The question that I was trying to answer with the BDGS (Bill Dayson Google Search) was whether or not CCU is involved in the greater academic research community. Bill Dayson has proven to me that some unaccredited institutions are part of the academic research community with his BDGS. My opinion is that for a doctorate to be fully valid it must be bestowed by an institution that is part of the greater academic community. Based on my one BDGS ( I admitted that I'm an amateur), I could find no evidence that CCU was part of the academic research community. IMHO, This does not detract from the CCU Bachelor's degree or the CCU Master's degree.

 

please define greater academic community.

 

Academic research is not done solely within the borders of each individual institution. There are exchanges of ideas and communication amongst the leaders of the different fields. Bill Dayson has proposed the Google Search to try to measure participation of specific institutions within the greater academic research community. I vividly remember him presenting the results from one search on an unaccredited institution in California that specialized in Human Sexuality studies, another one on Buddha Religious studies. There were many links found on seminars, exchange of papers, conventions, etc. It was very convincing that these unaccredited institutions were in fact plugged into the greater academic research community.

I could find no evidence in the search that I did that CCU participated in the greater academic research community. I only searched the first 100 pulled up by Google. Most hits were just people claiming CCU degrees on their resume, many hits were people questioning CCU and CCU degrees. If this is bothersome then perhaps you might want to search the other approximately 4000 hits for a link that would seem to indicate that CCU participates in the greater academic research community?