Legitimacy of an unaccredited University!!!!

Having heard so much about diploma mills, surely there must be a way to stop these operating. Education is to be Earned, NOT to be Bought by over night. I was thinking, why haven’t any unaccredited university/ies distance themselves by naming the diploma mills and take all the necessary steps to eliminate them (diploma mills) existence and fight to clear the grey area of accreditation and stand toe to toe with Nation or Regional Accrediting bodies and stating that just because our university isn’t accredited, that does not mean its program is below par from those of accredited ones or that other required requirements out of place.

Would there be a need to have any form accreditation (national or regional) if diploma mills never existed in the 1st place?


Migara

 

Diploma mills exist because many people feel that it is perfectly acceptable to be dishonest and pay for bogus credentials that (they hope) will never be questioned.

Since universities are not law enforcement agencies and this is clearly a question of breaking the law in many states, it is up to the attorneys general, the FBI, etc. to resurrect "DIPSCAM" and enforce the law.

Tony

 

Well, things aren't nearly as easy as they appear.

Unfortunately, many of the fraudulent programs operate at the very edge of the law, locating in states that loosely regulate schools... or else they are physically located in one state, while claiming to be in another, allowing both states to point fingers at each other about who is responsible.

If you search the archives of this board, you'll get a good idea of the problem, along with what many of the regulars here have done to help shut down the unwonderfuls.

A majority now operate from tiny islands or states such as Liberia where the government is so unstable that no one gives a damn about education fraud, making matters even more complicated.

Additionally, practically every fraudulent school on the planet has, at one time or another, "stood toe to to with the nation (sic) or regional accrediting bodies" and vigorously claimed that their program was every bit as good as an accredited program.

But, of course, none of them are... or they'd be applying for accreditation.

Ergo, accreditation is the best (and so far, the only practical ) means of assuring academic quality and integrity.

 

what I was refering into when I said unaccredited universities should report the diploma mills, because diploma mills gives a bad name reputation and low or nil recognition to the legitimate unaccredited universities. If Unaccredited Universities want to run long term with more value and respect both in the general public/business and academic world, cleaning out the diploma mills is the best way to go I think.

Migara

 

Administrator (Chip),

You make a very good point. Yes SRU is the worst of worst i think.
But I till think, there's lot more unaccredited universities can do to clean up its act as well as ironing out the diploma mills within each of the states and beyond

Migara

 

Yawn.

This sounds like yet another degree mill apologist trying to make a case for unaccredited schools.

There are very, very, very few unaccredited schools that are not in the "less than wonderful" category, and it's extremely hard to tell one from another.

What you're essentially asking is for fake school #1 to say "Fake school #2 is awful. You should shut it down!"

Not to mention that almost nobody in academia takes unaccredited schools seriously anyway (with exceptions I can count on one hand.)

And you make it sound as though all anyone has to do is make a few phonecalls and the degree mills in a given state will be shut down. Not the case, unfortunately.

The answer is to focus on accredited programs, that way you'll never have to apologize for the degree you have.

 

Re: shutting them down
One of the more famous diploma mills here in FL has a security door and cameras all the way down the hall. You couldn't get in without a badge and a gun. The ownership passes among a group of four people, frequently. They respond to no legal documents. It's hard to close 'em.

 

reply

This is why I make the point that I would no matter what the school or program under any circumstances accept a degree that is non-accredited. You could talk with me until I am blue in the face that such and such a school has high standards and such, and I will still give you the same response "It is not worth the paper it is written on." The degree or credential must be recognized by the United States Department of Education -- or an accrediting body that is recognized by the USDOE. I know that my religious friends will say that the school does not seek a certain accreditation because of governmental interference. I have no problems with any school that is regionally or nationally accredited. Perhaps, the policies and the way that they handle students could be better, but the bottom line is that the school must be accredited. If a religious school wants to give a certificate of completion or a diploma then I would not say that this would necessarily be a problem. This way each organization can base the reputation of the program on there own merits. However, to say that a person has a "degree" that is from an "unaccredited school" is to me not the equivalent of a legitimately earned degree from a regionally or nationally accredited school. I think it is the wording of "degree" which signifies "academia" that is the problem. Now, when it comes to a place just selling a degree to someone, then that is straight out a "diploma mill." However, with the lack of accreditation, then that is essentially in my view, it is treated as the same as a diploma mill. Unfortuntately, you may have earned the so-called degree legitimately, but without accreditation, there is no real way to decipher whether it is a diploma mill or what. I know that there are some who do not like my position on this matter. However, if you are going to hang something on the wall, or it is going to be seen by others, there is an acceptance factor involved. In example, a mechanic that works on your car is ASE certified -- which states that the mechanic has met certain requirements. Likewise, with a CPA, this person is proficient at Accounting. Bottom line as the Coke commercial says "The Real Thing." Accreditation is the real test for the statement "The Real Thing!"

 

Question?

Why would anyone want to attend an unaccredited school and waist time and money?

 

I think that legitimate non-accredited schools would be better advised to work on improving their own academic credibility and in pursuing accreditation when that's appropriate.

It's the responsibility of governments to decide which institutions are allowed to operate in the first place, and it's the responsibility of the accreditors to advise us on which of these they find credible.

 

Re: Re: Legitimacy of an unaccredited University!!!!

A horrid postulate.

Prosecuting fraud would be a legitimate government function.

 

philosophy:"Why would anyone want to attend an unaccredited school and waist time and money?"

nosborne48: Because in certain, limited circumstances an unaccredited but legitimate degree will qualify the graduate for a particular profession.

Because in certain areas of the law, accredited D/L options don't exist.

Because some unaccredited schools are unaccredited because they are new and there is a reasonable probablilty that the school will attain accreditation before the student graduates.

 

There are valid, legitimate unaccredited schools, that are that way for very good reasons. Some becasue they are too young (UC Merced, CSU Channel Islands) others becuase they are too small (National Test Pilots School), and others for valid religious reasons (Bob Jones).

Then trhere are some sincer efforts to provide a non-traditional education.

Then the scam artists.

The best way (IMO) to prevent the last is not requiring accreditation, but rather educating the public - whihc this forum does. Also to tighten up the rules about what is acceptable for hiring etc.

 

Re: Question?

Because they think that the school offers valuable education? Not all of us have a degree objective.

Personally, I don't anticipate earning any more degrees at this point. But ideas and education still fascinate me.

That makes education in general and DL in particular look very different. New kinds of options open up. Individual classes. Certificate programs. Programs offered by non-accredited providers. It doesn't really matter, so long as the content looks valuable and the cost is affordable.

My purpose now is to learn something valuable, not to collect a diploma that will influence somebody else.

I'm interested in Buddhism, much as some of the others here are interested in Bible study. That interest motivated me to kind of unsystematically search for educational opportunities. I will draw my examples from that search.

Here's some examples of the kind of non-accredited things that might interest an individual who isn't looking for a job qualification, first and foremost:

I find this British offering rather fascinating:

http://www.watthaiuk.com/watthai_uk/Courses/Buddhist%20Studies%20on%20line.htm

This is a Thai wat in England that offers an English language DL version of the Thailand government mandated course of study required of all Thai Buddhist monks. They say, "This course is validated by the Department of Religious Affairs and will lead to certification from the Department and signed by the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand." It's a three year program, with examinations each year. Examination papers are graded by a Thai monastic abbot. Books are provided. It's open to both lay and monastic students, though the lay students aren't permitted to take the modules on vinaya (the Buddhist monastic rule). The price is nominal and intended only to cover expenses, 50 British pounds a year for the whole program.

There's no degree or academic credit involved, but it may be the real deal for Theravada Buddhists.

Another credible non-credit, non-degree offering is Nalandabodhi, which offers what appears to be a serious Vajrayana program. Tuition appears to be nominal, $65/year.

http://www.nalandabodhi.org/study.homestudy.html

This DL program seems to be a four year program that parallels what's offered to residential students in these Kagyu lineage centers.

Graduates can go on to the equivalent of graduate study at their Nitartha Institute. The academic level looks to me to be quite sophisticated and somewhat reminiscent of a Tibetan monastic curriculum. Courses meet physically for one month each summer.

http://www.nitarthainstitute.org/curriculum.html

There are quite a few non-degree, non-credit DL programs offered by various groups that probably have considerable value.

Learn Sanskrit at home:

http://www.americansanskrit.com/athome/athome.html

Britain's Amida Trust for Socially Engaged Buddhism offers a DL certificate program in Buddhist psychology:

http://www.amidatrust.com/dl.htm

Vipassana meditation course:

http://www.vipassana.com/course/intro.php

Rigpa Tibetan meditation DL course:

http://www.rigpa.org/Courses/DiscNatMind.html

Something called Wildmind offers an online meditation course:

http://www.wildmind.org/

Dharmavastu offers a FWBO oriented introductory Buddhism course by DL, based on Sangharakshita's books.

http://www.dharmavastu.org/explore.html

If someone is interested in a more formal academic degree program, up to the doctoral level, the CA-approved University of the West shows promise of developing a program of international significance, offering a lineup of courses that would do many a "top tier" university proud:

http://www.hlu.edu/academics/religion/course_description.html

Of course, by the time a student actually graduates from this place, it will probably be solidly RA, since it's currently a Candidate with WASC.

But my point is this: There's a lot of valuable education to be had in these and similar examples, and at this point in time none of these programs are accredited by a US DoEd recognized accreditor.

Their educational value is why they interest me.

 

I think that you are right. One of the major findings of Rich Douglas' dissertation was that human resource professionals were woefully underinformed about the value (or lack thereof) of different types of accreditation (and the institutions that they accredit). He also demonstrated that with minimal education, they may much better decisions.

Now, how do we get this good information beyond the "walls" of Degreeinfo. I have encouraged Rich to publish his findings in journals and present them at conferences. That would be a good start.

Tony Pina
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

Hear, hear! After reading that ridiculous, non-scientific, completely flawed, sophmoric "survey" conducted at the last SHRM meeting (reported on the Off-Topic section -- which would you prefer for hiring, someone with a USC degree or UOP?), I think educating those in hiring/promotion positions regarding accreditation bodies and standards is vital. Another voice is joining in the chorus, Dr. Douglas -- please publish your results! They would do a world of good.

Regards,
Adrienne

 

Adrienne,

After your experiences with Degreeinfo, you should be able to come up with a bunch of possible dissertation topics. As you can see, there is a lot of good research to be done in this field.

Tony

 

It's "Rich."

I'm told by Union they've sent another copy of my dissertation to UMI.

I'm wrapping up a draft article on my dissertation findings for a journal. If accepted, I'll let you know where it is published.

 

Recognized accreditation provides a form of standards for a school to adhere to in order to belong. Unfortunately, with unaccredited schools there are no real standards and these vary from state to state. Some states are very lax and others such as Texas, New Yor, etc strongly regulate who can use terms like "university" and issue degrees.

Personally, I think it would be possible to regulate (accredit) schools out of the department of education of each state. This process would be cheaper for the schools.

Not every unaccredited school is a mill. It is just hard for the average person to tell. WHere do you draw the line. CCU is not a mill and yet folks who alllegedly took courses there slammed them for their academic methodlogy that seemed to say not mill but was it substantial like an RA school. Yet, frankly, we have heard criticsms of NCU of late complaining about problems with academic rigour.

Bob Jones University, Pensacola Christian University are examples frequently quoted of unaccredited schools with quality programs. BJU produces top quality grads in a number of fields who perform well or are accepted to top grad schools. BJU has a reputation for quality. Even acceptable in Oregon However, there are still problems such as the fact being unaccredited means that their grads may not be able to sit for certain kinds of licensure in certain states. Probably could not get hired where I work (no UnA degrees allowed).

North

 

My point exactly North!!!!

just because an insitution is unaccredited, it does not mean it a DIPLOMA MILL.

Luckly in Here in New Zealand, we dont have accredited/uncredited, as everything is controll by MoE and New Zealand Qualification authority.

Migara