Degree Mill States... Nevada?

Hi I wonder if somone can help me, as an HR manager for our company verifiying credentilas is very time consuming and as such we have focused most of our efforts in zeroing in on offshore mills like allthe London mills.

My question is in states such as california and now Nevada has laws against the issueing of false degrees. I was under the impression that such laws exist in all 50 states. ie if you issue a masters degree without cousework it is prohibited in all 50 states is that correct?? are there states that do not have this requirement? if so we willneed toplace those states on our red flag list.

Thank You for your answers

Kimba

 

Trying to keep up with the frequently changing state laws would probably be difficult. There's also many "exception" degree mills that somehow manage to operate in a state that has few degree mills. It is easier to just make sure that the schools are properly accredited.

 

degree mill states

Thanks for your response, Our company does not require that a school be accredited. As in these postings their are many legitamit unaccredited schools, it would not be fair to exculde all these qualified applicants.

Are there any states to watch for that have low standards?

and what do you mean by exemptions? the exemptions I am aware of are regarding theology... please clairify or elaborate

thanks again

Kimba

 

No. There are very few legitimate unaccredited schools. The problem is that it's hard to tell these few from the greater number of unacceptable unaccredited schools. I would suggest accepting unaccredited degrees only in circumstances in which you also accept no degree at all.

 

Kimba wrote:

> if you issue a master's degree without coursework, it is
> prohibited in all 50 states, is that correct??

First of all, it may not be illegal to print a piece of paper with the word "degree" on it. (You can claim it's a "novelty item" or something.) But even if it is, that doesn't mean the law is being enforced. Hawaii was a haven for mills until recently. I don't think they've changed their laws, but they've finally got around to enforcing the laws they had.

> Our company does not require that a school be accredited.
> As in these postings there are many legitimate unaccredited
> schools, it would not be fair to exclude all these qualified
> applicants.

As OxPecker says, very few, not "many". In Oregon, it is legal to use degrees from exactly 3 unaccredited schools: Bob Jones University, South Carolina; Southern California University for Professional Studies, California (Psychology PhD only); and University for Humanistic Studies, California.
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html
Which other "legitimate unaccredited schools" do you think you have "qualified applicants" from?

> Are there any states to watch for that have low standards?

Some states (e.g. Wyoming) have much laxer standards than others for "State Approved" colleges. Many or most of the mills are not even "State Approved", although some of them are. Nearly all the mills claim to be "accredited" (by bogus accreditors).

> And what do you mean by exemptions? The exemptions I
> am aware of are regarding theology... Please clairify or
> elaborate

Bill said "exceptions" (mills that happen to exist), not "exemptions" (categories of schools that the legislature has decided to allow). But in some states, religious schools are so "exempted" that they're allowed to confer non-religious degrees (e.g., Hamilton University).

 

Re: degree mill states

Actually there are few unaccredited schools that are legitimate. (I was going to elaborate a little further on this point but I now notice that the always helpful Mark Israel has already covered it.)

There are some states that are weaker than others. Mark mentions a couple, Hawaii and Wyoming. Hawaii makes a very interesting example. They recently made some new laws that on my reading I thought was actually very weak. It mainly put restrictions on the claims that unaccredited institutions typically make. It actually turns out to be working fairly well though, primarily because enforcement has been vigorous. The law allows civil cases against the degree mills and has been shown to be much easier and cheaper to investigate and easier to prosecute degree mills that violate the law. The main point being that key ingredient is enforcement. There are some states with some fairly strict laws but with very spotty enforcement so some degree mills that are probably violating the law are not closed down.

Trying to base your policy or procedure on states is a very risky venture, IMHO. If you want to accept unaccredited degrees then perhaps using Oregon's web list might be sufficent? Another option might be to use Bears' Guide. A caution in using the wonderful Bears' Guide is that the Miscellaneous and Other Chapters contain what are mostly degree mills (at least in my opinion). As is explained in the book there are many degree mill owners that have received pleasure from filling frivilous lawsuits against Dr. John Bear because he called them a degree mill. Therefore many degree mills are not listed in the degree mill chapter and instead are listed in the Miscellaneous and Other chapters which means that responsibility for differentiating the very few bona fide unaccredited schools from the degree mills falls back on the reader.

 

One of the complications here, Mr. or Ms. Kimba, is deciding where a "school" really is located. There are many that use an address in one state, but are really run from another state where laws may be much less demanding. California-address schools with their licensing from Wyoming, New Mexico, or Hawaii. Florida and Rhode Island based schools with their licensing from Alabama. And, of course, lots and lots of places with addresses in the US that claim their licensing from St. Kitts, the British or US Virgin Islands, Turks & Caicos, Malawi, Liberia, etc.

If I were running an HR department, I would really think twice about having an employee I could not send to Oregon-Nevada-Illinois-New Jersey-etc. on business purposes without subjecting them to criminal prosecution. And degree disclosures under Sarbanes-Oxley, another untested area of concern.

 

Bill Huffman wrote:

> Hawaii makes a very interesting example. They recently
> made some new laws

I sit corrected.

 

State Standards

Hi I was looking into the Hamilton University you mentioned, they say they are accredited by American Council of Private Colleges and Universities but I never heard of them, I am told that UC just started a school in Merced which is unaccredited, I would regard that as a good school, wouldnt you?

I also think that some of the State standards for auithority to issue degrees may even be higher than some recognized accrediting agencies, such as state of Calif. does anyone agree?

Does Hamiliton have authority to issue science and arts degrees without any standards? just like a mill? and they are allowed to operate bythe state! are there anymore states like that to watch for?

Thank You

Kimba

 

Re: State Standards

Comparing a degree mill with a new state university because both are unaccredited is, well, silly.

There is no state approval/authorization/licensing/etc. that is "higher" than recognized accreditation. Even New York's, which is also a recognized accreditor by the USDoE.

The states aren't the issue. The acceptability of the degree is. While in some states unaccredited schools are required to be quite substantial, that doesn't mean their degrees will meet your needs.

 

Kimba writes:

> I was looking into the Hamilton University you mentioned,
> they say they are accredited by American Council of Private
> Colleges and Universities but I never heard of them,

A bogus "accreditor" which "accredits" only Hamilton. You shouldn't believe a school because they say they're accredited. The gold standard in the US is Regional Accreditation. Start by checking the Website of the Regional Accreditor for the appropriate region.

> I am told that UC just started a school in Merced which is
> unaccredited, I would regard that as a good school, wouldn't
> you?

Yes. It's pursuing Regional Accreditation, which takes a while. Every US college is unaccredited at the time of founding. But you can trust a college in the University of California system.

> I also think that some of the State standards for authority
> to issue degrees may even be higher than some recognized
> accrediting agencies, such as state of Calif. Does anyone
> agree?

No, Regional Accreditation is a much tougher standard than California state approval. The states with the toughest regulations require all colleges to be either accredited or pursuing accreditation.

> Does Hamiliton have authority to issue science and arts
> degrees without any standards? just like a mill? and they are
> allowed to operate by the state! are there any more states like
> that to watch for?

Please re-read what Dr Bear wrote.

 

education vs. degrees

Perhaps if the concern was what a pespective employee actually knew and could do rather than whether she had a degree, HR managers would spend less valuable time trying to verify the status of various institutions. I believe that Plato, Archimedes, Jesus and Socrates had some very valuable insights but none held degrees, and Julius Caesar did not attend West Point, either. Plato would not be allowed to teach in a contemporary university--no Ph.D., poor guy --unless he got an honorary degree for life experience-ah, but that's a no-no.

Bopeep (yes, Ph.D.)

 

I cant disagree with you on that bopeep I think you can add Bill Gates, Larry Ellison Abe Lincoln and others to that list. Thats what I meant when I said lots of qualified people who bypassed school. But still if someone presents a degree to me Iwant to know what kind it is.

I know there are police departments that accept life experiance degrees, and I think that if someone of the caliber of Bill Gate (I hate windows) came to me with a life exeriance Doctorate in Computer Science and was open on how he got the degree.... I would make an effor to hire them. In the end you are not hirinbg the degree but the person and if that person has been doing the Job for 10 years they normally are head and shoulders above a new graduate with a degree in almost every respect (confidence, qualifications, productivity..... Warren Buffet I heard say once "its hard to teach a new dog old tricks

Miss Kimba

 

Re: education vs. degrees

Welcome, Dr. Evans. You are Dr. Evans, are you not?

 

honesty about degrees

Indeed, it's clearly fraudulent to present a degree "by evaluation" as a degree earned by courses, exams, dissertations, etc. Such a presentation will reflect on the character of the presenting individual and may well be relevant to employment, of course.

Now as to the idea of degrees "by evaluation" of a professional portfolio, work experience, prior academic accomplishments, I think that this concept is a good one, PROVIDED that such evaluation is rigorous, careful, documented and performed by competent academicians and professional practitioners. The problem is that "mills" will simply skip the rigor and sell a degree outright. Nonethess, there may be "qualified" individuals with "milled" degrees, as there are most surely unqualified persons with "legitmate" degrees. It's a bit of a dilemma.

I think too much turns on degrees alone as a quick and easy way to classify. But, of course, who wants his dentist to be an SRU graduate--he might try to use a proctoscope to do a root canal.

bopeep

 

Bopeep: Plato would not be allowed to teach in a contemporary university--no Ph.D., poor guy --unless he got an honorary degree for life experience-ah, but that's a no-no.

John: Simply not true, Dr. Bopeep. I could give examples till your sheep came home, but I'll spare you all but two. My wife chose to do her doctorate in philosophy at Vanderbilt solely because of the presence there of Alisdair McIntyre, the most distinguished, most published, probably highest paid all-star of a large department and the only member without a Ph.D. And the most revered and respected full professor at Reed, when I was there, was Marvin Levich, whose only degree was a Bachelor's from Morningside College in Sioux City.

 

And apparently Jesse Ventura will soon be teaching at Harvard.. Of course, he's a lot smarter than Plato. Just ask him.

By the way, Bopeep (Dr. Evans,) you still did not answer my question.