External Educators Critique Louisiana Baptist University

Since LBU has been the subject of much discussion of late, the following excerpts from the 2003-2004 catalog are interesting.

LBU continually seeks to improve the quality of the institution. For this reason, LBU is semi-annually examined by an independent review committee comprised of ministers and educators. (p. 14)

The following three assessments are listed in the current catalog: (pp. 22-23)

Dr. Harold Ledford
Louisiana State University, Shreveport

In reviewing the Christian Education department of LBU, I find that it meets the national norms in all areas that I reviewed. Many of the textbooks are the same as the ones used at Louisiana State and other major universities. Each course requires several research papers and a comprehensive final. The learning process and degree requirements compare favorably with those of other teacher colleges and state universities.

Dr. John Steffens
University of Oklahoma

My overall assessment of LBU is very good. The course offerings clearly meet national norms. The study guides are well designed and augmented with additional research papers. The final test is administered under the direction of a proctor in order to insure academic integrity...It is the intent of the university to offer an academically sound education in a Christian environment, clearly they are succeeding.

Dr. Richard Thompson
Director of Vocation Education
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico

I first reviewed LBU in May of 1993, when I was Director of the Bureau of Student Services of the Louisiana Department of Education. I was impressed with the quality of their program and...indicated at that time that I thought LBU had great possibilities.

In the nine years since, the university has improved its facilities, increased its course offerings, hired additional professionals, and quadrupled its student body while maintaining the enthusiasm and dedication to excellence.

These assessments are not equivalent to accreditation, however, they do address LBU's commitment to offer substantive programs of study.

 

Thanks for bringing that up Russell. I had just listed in the old thread that, although LBU has many teachers there who hold their own degrees from that school, there are others there that hold ThD and PhD's from accredited colleges. LBU, though a way to go to get accredited, seems to be improving in these areas every year.

Way

 

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Perhaps some evaluation by administrators or profs from Dallas , TEDS, and Westminster would be appropriate?

 

After 45 minutes of repeated attempts to post on the main LBU thread, I'll try here. What is this Holy Trinity Seminary from which some LBU profs have degrees?

 

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a mystery of the faith?

 

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Or, perhaps Harvard, Yale or Princeton, as this would allow for global credibility in the secular arena as well.

 

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In your first post you connect these LBU catalogue testimonials by administrators of secular schools to the other thread. The other thread included discussions on what constitutes good grad studies in Bible. Both Ed and I along with Way and Jason and Unk talked about that. What do these testimonials you here post have to do with that discussion of graduate theological education?

What do they at all have to do with the quality of LBU/Ss religious training? That is my point. If you would concede that these testimonials have nothing to with that, then please post that opinion here*. Otherwise, being unqualified, your initial post could be taken by novices to these issues as a general endorsement of LBU/S! Is that how you meant it?*

LBU claims its evangelical, graduate programs in Bible /Theology are substantial and rigorous. If, therefore, it includes in its catalogue testimonials by those experienced in RA secular programs to the LBU non theological coursework("LBU uses the same textbook we do "), then, Russell, why not include as well in balance testimonials from experts in RA graduate evangelical Bible training as well?*

Why not have three experts from three evangelical RA seminaries, your choice Russell, which offer doc work in Bible evaluate the LBU grad programs in Biblical studies. Why not? I'll tell you why LBU does not do this although gladly it seeks endorsement from experts in secular education.

LBU knows very well that the majority of its professors are not academically qualified by the standards of evangelical accreditors to teach Biblical studies* and LBU knows very well that no RA evangelical seminary bases Biblical doctoral work on six units of Greek or on watching a video as someone in an LBU doc says is allowable*.

Perhaps if LBU attends to such deficits as these it might reach the point of some other UA seminaries whose grads actually get into RA accredited doc programs* . But until LBU makes some substantial changes in faculty and programs, IMO, LBU can neither garner such support from RA seminaries or have grads succeed in accredited doc programs in Biblical studies.

Your reference to Harvard etc seems evasive to my point. Could you please specifically respond to the comments marked with * ?

I certainly am not saying that individuals as Way or you either should not be at LBU. Nor am I saying LBU is a mill. Nor am I denying that improvement may be occuring.

But I intend to rise to occasions when something is said which might be interpreted as meaning that the LBU program or some other UA ones in rigor equals or is close to equalling RA programs.

But I know how much you enjoy dabbling in the promotion of UA theological education. Hopefully that does not not mislead many. Please go right on doing this here as responding to you is a nice relief from my studies and it provides me with a ministry as well.

 

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Bill,

1. The connection this thread has with the other LBU thread is that both began as a discussion of LBU. If you notice, I said in the original post "LBU has been the subject of much discussion of late." Herein lies the connection, both threads focus on LBU.

2. The intent of my post was to state the opinion of three external educators regarding LBU. I clearly stated that these endorsements do not equal accreditation, but they do show that LBU is attempting to offer a substantive program of study--at least in the opinion of three external educators.

3. Regarding having a balanced perspective, which would include experts in RA graduate evangelical education, this would indeed be a positive inclusion. I merely posted the three which were listed in the LBU catalog.

 

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Russell

1) Way's very first post in the other LBU thread clearly states "theological school."

2) The three external experts in RA secular education are not experts in theological education. Therefore their testimony is irrelevent for ascertaining the quality of LBUs religious programs. How curious that LBU chose secular RA witnesses and not Theological RA witnesses!

3) You agree that LBU should include testimonials by educators of RA seminaries saying that LBUs grad theological programs are the equivalent of RA or nearly so. Why do you suppose LBU chooses not to include such in their catalogue? Would you agree with me that the likely reason is LBU could find no expert in evangelical RA grad theological education that would say the LBU grad theoloy program is equal to accredited ones?

4) As you chose not to respond to my * questions above, let me suppose you wish not to answer them and let me instead ask you two new question2:

1- Does it seem to you the thing to do for LBU to list its endorsements on its website from ACI and ACCTS, both of which call themselves "accreditors," and not explain as well on its website why LBU does not seek real, genuine ,evangelical, NA accreditation by AABC or TRACS?

2- In your opinion is it generally OK for profs with unaccredited degrees to teach doctoral Biblical studies and is it OK for doctoral programs in Bible to not require exegesis in the original languages in both coursework and dissertations?

Please answer these.

 

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Bill,

1. The title of Way's thread is LBU, the title of my thread is in regard to LBU. Indeed, LBU is a theological/ministerial/religious oriented school.

2. The catalog states that LBU is semi-annually examined by an independent review committee comprised of ministers and educators. How many from each group are utilized for this process, or why the three listed were chosen, I have no way of knowing.

3. I agree that statements from RA evangelical theological prof's/admin's would certainly be a positive inclusion. I do not agree that lack of inclusion automatically implies: 1) An overt attempt of deception; or 2) That LBU "could find no expert" in this area who would positively assess their programs.

***Two New Questions

1. LBU's association with ACI lasted one year (96 I think?). LBU did not renew its relationship after that. According to LBU, many schools associated with ACI were little more than "less than wonderful," and they did not wish to be associated with these schools. ACCTS appears more of an in-house (Independent Baptist) attempt at maintaining quality assurance, and in no way presents itself as the equivalent of RA.

2. You ask for my opinion here. If a prof at a UA school is teaching doctoral studies in the area of practical theology, I have less concern here than if the prof is teaching, say, biblical languages, etc... Ph.D. level programs specifically in "Bible," biblical languages, etc., should incorporate exegetical work.

***The nomenclature for LBU's "School of Biblical Studies" Ph.D. is "Bible and Theology." In my opinion this should be specifically either one or the other. Currently, one may earn the Ph.D. in practical theology, yet the transcript reads "Bible and Theology." Specific clarification in these areas would be beneficial, and perhaps lessen some of the confusion.

No, this thread was not begun to suggest that LBU is "equal" to RA in each and every area. Only to suggest that LBU seeks to offer a legitimate program of study, and is committed to the continual enhancement of such programs, and that a few external educators (albeit not theological in training) assessed LBU's programs in a postive light. Perhaps at some point they will follow the path of Luther Rice, ACCS, etc., and pursue NA. It would, IMO, be to their advantage to do so.

 

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Louisiana Baptist University

Louisiana Baptist University claims many references of people who state that the programs offered there are of academic excellence. I remember once in there catalog back in the 1990’s and also on there web site where they were once recognized or examined by the Louisiana Board of Regents. However, any of the information that was placed on the web site or the literature that LBU put out never came out and said that these experts were in 100% agreement that the quality of education that is obtained at LBU meets the requirements of an educational institution. It either cuts the mustard or it doesn’t. My opinion is that it doesn’t cut the mustard. I also find it rather interesting that the web site states that the University is “state-of-the-art” and we will be giving you a tour to show you the facilities of Louisiana Baptist University. Such has never happened, and I doubt very much if it ever will. Sure, they have a nice place for there so called “Louisiana Baptist University” but if they were really concerned about making there University the best possible, they would be willing to seek some sort of accreditation. I have been in contact with Dr. Weaver in regards to the inquiry about accreditation, and he claimed that they were seeking accreditation through the DETC, but that the reason why they weren’t able to get this accreditation is because the DETC doesn’t do accreditation of schools that offer doctorates. This is a very convenient way to dodge the issue. I mentioned to him that they could certainly look into having accreditation up to the Master’s degree level, but when pressed on the issue, he became irritable. He finally refused to answer anymore of my questions concerning accreditation and pretty much thought that I was wasting his time. I think that is what people are doing if they are getting there education from Louisiana Baptist University.

 

Re: Louisiana Baptist University

 

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Bill,

My intention is not to be evasive. To know every detail regarding LBU (or any school), one would need to inquire with the administration. Yes, from the catalog of available courses, LBU does offer grad work in biblical studies, and it would appear that one could do a dissertation in this area. What LBU requires in in this area in terms of exegesis, I simply don't know.

Should a prof supervising such a dissertation have an accredited doctorate? In my opinion it would depend on what one wanted to do with the doctorate. 1) If one aspires to use the credential to obtain a faculty position at an accredited school, then yes. 2) If one plans to use the degree in the pastorate, not necessarily. One would expect, however, that if a prof was supervising a dissertation which required original language exegesis, even for hypothetical #2, the prof should himself have experience in such, even if from an unaccredited school. If not, how could he/she possibly supervise one's research with any level of integrity?

As a side note, for those "novices" as you call them who may stumble across this site, neither you nor I infer degree mill credentials when unaccredited degrees are alluded to.

 

Re: Louisiana Baptist University

I disagree, Phi.

Numerous pastors have earned ministerial degrees from "some" unaccredited schools, which have proven beneficial to their ministry. Charles Stanley is often used as a case in point here. While his undergrad and MDiv (BDiv then) were at RA schools, he earned his Th.M. and Th.D. from Luther Rice Seminary---years before LRS obtained TRACS accreditation. Stanley later served as president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and has had tremendous success in his ministry.

As Bear, Walston, Levicoff, Janko, Grover, and others have stated, some unaccredited schools offer substantive programs of study. One only needs to be aware of the utility factor, and if the program then meets one's needs, it isn't necessarily a waste of time.

 

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I would agree with you in practical theology ; only in very rare situations would I in Bib/Theo doc studies. And I have no reason to think LBU profs with UA docs are among the exceptions . I would think of someone like John Murray with his tHm ONLY as being exceptioal.

Our standards, Russell, are very different. That's disappoints me really quite a bit. But I'll get over it.

I do not want our differences to ruin our virtual friendship.

 

Question

Of those of you who are students at Louisiana Baptist University and Theological Seminary -- how did you hear of the school?