Louisiana Baptist University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Way, Dec 27, 2003.

Loading...
  1. Way

    Way New Member

    There was a post some time ago regarding a poll of Louisiana Baptist University. It appears, that as the poll registered more votes for the school being either good or mediocre, the polling stopped. What was the consensus? This is either a bad "mill" or it is a fairly good theological school that just happens to be unaccredited at this time. They seems to require a substantial amount of work. What say you all?
     
  2. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Way: I have no first hand experience with LBU. I'm very cautiously open to unaccredited schools if they are places of integrity and competence. Some of us have posted negative comments about the disorganization at ACCS, which is TRACS accredited, at least at the moment. I would like to supplement your general question about LBU quality with a secondary pair of my own: has anyone any direct experience of organizational competence and efficiency (as distinct from academic rigor) at LBU? Do they process your work properly, answer questions consistently and accurately, get done what they're supposed to do administratively? Thanks. Janko
     
  3. Way

    Way New Member

    So far, they have been extremely prompt, professional, and on-subject with all of my U.S. mail, phone calls, and e-mails. Regarding phone calls and e-mails, I get a response in less than an hour and most times the response is much sooner than that. All concerns are dealt with in an extremely professional manner. I can appreciate the problems encountered at ACCS as I was one of the people experiencing those problems with them. Hence, I am no longer a student at ACCS for just those reasons. ACCS should have had a better handle on those administrative tasks before seeking accreditation with TRACS. Right now I find the course work with LBU vigorous and challenging as well as relevant. The tuition is very resonable. I regret losing my $700.00 to ACCS for the one course I will not finish with them.
     
  4. wfisher698

    wfisher698 New Member

    What school is the ACCs?
     
  5. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===





    In the 1999 edition of Christian Distance Learning, Walston speaks unfavorably of LBU as he says 75% of the faculty have their highest degrees from unaccredited schools and that LBU has claimed phony accreditation.



    But here *without any particular application to LBU* are my own thoughts:

    If I could be allowed to look at the issue from that of a prospective doctoral student in Bible , I would concern myself with some very important questions. These questions all relate to the issue of what a PhD/ThD in Bible (not in Ministry) means to me and to others and why I want that degree.



    1) What are the prerequisites for admission?

    Do these parallel those of accredited US seminaries in terms of prior experience in thesis writing, abilty to use the original languages in exegesis, a broad understanding of the movements and issues in this discipline, and an accredited MA, MDiv or ThM? These prerequisites are a quality control!

    If the applicants for the doctoral program do not meet stiff requirements for admission into the program showing their ability to do doc level work ,as evidenced either by prior degrees or exams, the end products of the program , ie the graduates, likely will fall short. This is because the rigor of program components would have to be kept low enough for even the less qualified applicants to succeed.



    2) Who teaches in the doctoral programs?

    If I want the rigor of an accredited doctoral program then it would seem one likely requisite for that would be that my profs have accredited docs. If they do not, why would I suppose their academic experience would qualify them to provide the rigor of an accredited doc to me? I find it significant that even the national accreditors require that schools have profs with accredited degrees. My hunch is that many profs at many UA grad schools would not even meet the AABC norm to teach freshman Bible. TRACS requires schools to in most cases have profs with accredited PhDs/ThDs teach grad level Bible. Does anyone really think these standards do not go to better assure quality instruction?



    3) What are the curriculum and expectations of the doctoral program in Bible?

    This must not just be measured in quantity. 200 semester units of work in Bible at a BA or MA level does equal a genuine PhD in Bible. So let's not say that because a particular school requires lots of work that therefore this evinces quality. It does not. The question is the level of the studies not just the amount of them.

    The PhD in Bible should enable one to interact with the most complex issues in the discipline. The PhD should be a three year interaction with the most difficult issues. It should not consist of surveys and superficial studies which should all have been done in anticipation of the doctoral work, IMO.

    For example suppose the doctoral class is Philippians. Very well, in Philippians 2:6 is Burke right that the articular infinitive is not anaphoric, why/why not? This point is vital to the interpretation of that verse. And that verse is central to understanding the Incarnation. Of course, few grad students in Bible would be expected to be able to answer off the tops of their heads.

    But the point is, a doctoral level course in that Book of Philippians must prepare one to deal with just such issues. If it does not, it is not doctoral level work! Examples of these kinds of issues could be multiplied scores and scores of times through out the Bible.

    If courses in the Bible do not enable one to deal with such issues, in terms of reviewing the arguments in the literature pro and con and developing and defending a position ,then these studies certainly are not doctoral level courses.

    That leads to the next point.



    4) Why do "I" want the PhD?

    Is it just so I can be called "Dr."? Is it just so I can be highly thought of in the narrow confines of my school's denomination? Or, is it that I genuinely love my discipline, ie, the Bible, so much that I want to learn it as well as I possibly can? Is it so that I can deal with just such issues as the function of the articular infinitive in Philippians 2:6?

    Is it knowledge and skills I am really after or just a title? If it genuinely is knowledge and skills, and not just a title, then what should evidence to me that a particular school offering a PhD in Bible will actually provide me with that knowledge and skills? That leads to the next question.



    5) What is the experience and reputation of the profs and students school in theological academe at a national or international level?

    Regarding faculty, here someone will say , "Well, Dr. So and So has written over 100 books." But that proves nothing. How are those books received in academia? What quality are they?

    This is a very fair question as a PhD is an academic degree isn't it? You do not need a PhD to compose Bible study notes for Sunday School teachers. A PhD should stand for a high level of proficiency in the discipline in which it is awarded.

    This is why those who complete accredited docs in Bible or Theology despise the process allowed practiced in many UA schools where others acquire PhDs in those areas coming away with far less competency because they do far less rigor.

    So what is the involvement of the profs at a particular seminary which shows a genuine interaction with academic theological studies? Do they read papers to Biblical societies as ETS? Do they do articles in Bible dictionaries, encylopedias, or lexicons? Do they write Greek or Hebrew grammars? Do they compose exegetical commentaries?

    Regarding students, if one gets an MDiv from a particular UA seminary, can that one on the basis of that qualification be accepted into and be successful in a PhD in an accredited school? If not, that evinces a school's poor reputation. How many MA/MDiv grads of a particular seminary finish accredited PhDs elsewhere? If few or none, why is that? The answer is not that no grads of any UA seminaries have such a success; some UA schools and grads of same do enjoy this status! So, if a particular seminary and its grads do not, then why not?

    Further, are the doctoral grads of a particular seminary contributing to the field in the manner questioned above of the profs of that seminary? Do grads teach on the basis of that doc in accredited schools?



    These comments are given out of a love for the discipline.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2003
  6. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    American Christian College and Seminary. Use the search function here for much discussion re it.
     
  7. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Bill: I agree with what you said, but it is beside my particular point here. My concern was explicitly not with academic rigor, but with the competence, effficiency, courtesy, etc., of what might be called support services and administration.
     
  8. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    I know, Unk, I was responding to " Way" who said in the initial post, "...they require a substantial amount of work. What say you all?"
     
  9. Jason Gastrich

    Jason Gastrich New Member

    *Linda Vista, then unaccredited, keeping the same campus in El Cajon, evolved into the TRACS accredited Southern California Bible College and Seminary nearly 50 years after its inception in 1946 . The moral for me is even old things like I am can undergo good changes!

    --

    Hi everybody,

    I found your site while doing a Google search. Interesting place. I like it.

    I'm a Ph.D. student at Louisiana Baptist University. I'm pursuing a degree in Biblical Studies and Dr. Roy Wallace is my advisor. It has been a great program and I'm learning a lot.

    I'm happy to answer questions about the program and course work. I transferred to LBU's distance education program from Liberty University's campus program and LBU accepted my Masters level credits from Liberty. They informed me that if I completed their Masters program with high marks, then I would be eligible for their Ph.D. program. I received my Masters and started my Doctorate in the summer of 2003.

    I happen to live in San Diego and my home town is El Cajon. I thought it was interesting that a signature mentioned my home church's seminary on the hill where Linda Vista Bible College was located.

    God bless,
    Jason
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Welcome on board Jason. Appreciate you sharing your experiences. Good luck with your LBU program.

    Your web site says you have a ThD. Where did you earn your ThD?

    North
     
  11. Jason Gastrich

    Jason Gastrich New Member

    Hi North,

    Thanks for the kind welcome.

    A school named Shepherd Bible College and Seminary has awarded me a Th.D. degree for my outstanding ministry and academic achievements (e.g. my book). It is basically an honorary degree. Glory to God.

    Jason
     
  12. Way

    Way New Member

    LBU requires an MDiv of 90 credit hours for admission to its ThD program. So far, based on the course I am taking, the work is analytical and thorough. SInce I am retired, I am able to devote at least 40 hours per week to this study which, I am finding out, is what it is taking. I received my M.A. from LBU and that took three years. Hardly a "pay your fee and we'll send you a degree" mill. I am aware of Dr. Walston's book and even wrote to him thanking him for his work indicating that I was not going to go back to LBU for just the reasons he cited. While it is true Dr.Walston cited the high number of faculty with their own degrees from LBU, nothing is stated about the quality of study. I opted instead for ACCS. That turned out to be quite a mistake and, even though I did not finish my first course with them because of an inability to communicate with them, the work at ACCS did not compare to the rigor of LBU. Yet, ACCS is accredited (thus far). While I will agree that an accredited degree is best, there are schools that are unaccredited that offer honest and valid work in order to earn a degree and I believe that LBU is one of them. I was questioning, with my original post, what the thoughts of others were. I am especially interested in the opinions of those who have had personal experiences with LBU whether good or bad.
     
  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===


    Wecome Jason

    I think a comparison of Linda Vista with the new school on that El Cajon hill will serve to exemplify my points. Linda Vista began in that part of San Diego called Linda Vista. It never was accredited there. This did not mean that the school was unsuccessful in training pastors or missionaries etc. . But I am talking about academic doctorates here not pastoral degrees. Dr. Reese, its founder, did not have an accredited doc. Later the school moved to El Cajon. I was involved with it in the 60s and 70s both as a student and as a teacher.

    Linda Vista in those years had no faculty with accredited docs in Bible/Theology, but that did not prevent Linda Vista from giving out docs in these. This is because Linda Vista was not accredited, so they could do about whatever they wished. LV did not have to meet the norms of an accreditor. So, lots of folks got LV docs and lots of folks could call each other "Dr."

    But after Reese died the new school, So. Cal. BC/Sem, decided to strive for TRACS accreditation. But big changes had to be made. Some doc programs had to be abandoned . New faculty had to be hired. This is because the old faculty was not deemed qualified by TRACS to provide grad theological education. You see, TRACS has the "strange" assumption that there is a correlation between the quality of a grad program and the faculty having accredited doctorates not unaccredited ones. Grad degrees are academic, so one does not qualify to teach in a grad program simply because he is a nice person , preaches well, or has an unaccredited doc.

    So, the new school brought its programs and faculty within the specifications of the TRACS requirements for accreditation. You can read these specifications on the TRACS site. Southern Calif Bible College and Seminary willingly allowed itself to be evaluated by an agency approved by the government to accredit. It did so for the purpose of improving that school's credibility, utility, quality, and rigor.

    But LBU has not taken up that challenge to acquire genuine accreditation although, at least at one point, it knowingly claimed false accreditation . By way comparison, Dr. Wallace , your PhD supervisor, by his degrees, unless I'm confusing him with another, is not even qualified to teach freshman Bible by the standards of the American Association of Bible Colleges..a recognized accreditor. I believe it was Wallace with whom I spoke once on the phone who told me that he had four docs...amazing! LBU will not submit itself to the scrutinty which that seminary on that El cajon hill welcomed.

    None of this is to say that LBU does not train ministers etc in adequate manners. My concern in this thread is that LBU is far and away different in its grad theological programs than accredited schools. My concern is whether academics in UA schools equal academics in US accredited evangelical schools. IMO with few exceptions they do not!

    But as usual I write this with a tensions: the respect for those who do the rigor of accredited theological docs vs. the right of those to acquire docs in any other way they feel "led" ; the conviction that unaccredited docs are unlikely to provide a genuine doctoral rigor and that it requires generally profs with accredited docs to provide such rigor vs. the realization that unaccredited religious schools by the exemption given them legally are not required to parallel either the program or the faculty of accredited religious schools.

    I'm sorry this is all so negative, let me now be positive. I'm grateful for your book on apologetics. I've not read it, but I'm sure it is helpful. I applaud your desire to learn Scripture even better. God bless you in your studies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2003
  14. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===
    WAY,

    I agree with you about the ACCS coursework. It is not up to snuff. That is why ACCS may lose its accreditation. But you should be comparing LBU with RA accredited evangelical seminaries. NO TRACS school awards the PHD/ThD!

    I do feel qualified to make a comment, despite that lack of not doing any LBU classes , based on my experience in accredited schools and on my understanding of the doctoral programs there. You say LBU provides honest and valid doctoral work. Are you saying that that work done for your PhD is equivalent to work done for an accredited PhD? The issue is the level not the amount!

    No USA accredited evangelical school with a PhD/ThD program allows one to pursue a doctorate in Bible without the ability to exegete in the original languages. Both coursework and dissertation in a doc in Bible would much involve such exegesis. To be comparable to accredited programs , therefore, would require the LBU student to do that. How could the doctoral student in Bible interact with the research literature and properly interpret more difficult Scriptures without considerable coursework in the original languages including the exegesis of Books in Hebrew or Greek preparing him to do that?

    Consider the example given above in Phil 2:6. Both Wallace [the one with the accredited PhD from Dallas , not the Wallace at LBU] and his protoge ,the ThM holder from DTS, Burke, maintain that the articular infinitive there is not anaphoric. Burk argues that accusatives in that text form an object-complement construction so that the article serves to distinguish the grammatical object from the accusative complement. Therefore, they see there evidence of the eternal functional subordination of the Son. Thus exegetics bears a strong relation to the forming of theological propositions. In other words, one's beliefs should be based on the meanings of the originals.


    Now I assure you, as I've been there, that the MDiv grad of Western Seminary or the ThM student at same, deals with just such problems as this one in Phil 2:6 on a regular basis . So, would your MA/PhD from LBU prepare you to evaluate that claim by Burk/Wallace for yourself through reviewing for yourself occasions in the New Testament where articular infinitives are or are nor anaphoric? Of course one could reply that LBU sees no need to teach such exegesis. But then, if true, a major difference between LBU and the PhD in Bible offered by LBU's accredited sister evangelical seminaries is manifest. The issue is whether it is equitable to allow one to obtain a doctoral qualification in Bible who cannot do exegesis at the level other schools require of their master's students.

    I'm willing to say that LBU is no mill. But I doubt that its doctoral program in Bible closely resembles those of accredited schools .If it did, it would be accredited.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2003
  15. Way

    Way New Member

    Hi Bill,

    I appreciate your comments. I do believe that LBU has the language requirements you speak of; Greek and Hebrew for its MDiv program. I also agree that the proper exegesis is essential. Having said that, there are schools that are capable of providing that without being accredited. Regent University, Oral Roberts University, North American Baptist Seminary, Luther Seminary, Episcopal Divinity School, etc., all of which are accredited, may determine that their students have the ability to do exegesis utilizing the original languages yet all may or may not come to the same conclusions. I do however, agree that this ability is critical.
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2003
  17. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
  18. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Louisiana Baptist University

     
  19. Jason Gastrich

    Jason Gastrich New Member

    Wecome Jason

    I think a comparison of Linda Vista with the new school on that El Cajon hill will serve to exemplify my points. Linda Vista began in that part of San Diego called Linda Vista. It never was accredited there. This did not mean that the school was unsuccessful in training pastors or missionaries etc. . But I am talking about academic doctorates here not pastoral degrees. Dr. Reese, its founder, did not have an accredited doc. Later the school moved to El Cajon. I was involved with it in the 60s and 70s both as a student and as a teacher.
    --

    JASON:

    That's interesting because I currently live in the Linda Vista area. I live off Linda Vista Road and near Calvary Baptist Church.
    --

    Linda Vista in those years had no faculty with accredited docs in Bible/Theology, but that did not prevent Linda Vista from giving out docs in these. This is because Linda Vista was not accredited, so they could do about whatever they wished. LV did not have to meet the norms of an accreditor. So, lots of folks got LV docs and lots of folks could call each other "Dr."

    But after Reese died the new school, So. Cal. BC/Sem, decided to strive for TRACS accreditation. But big changes had to be made. Some doc programs had to be abandoned . New faculty had to be hired. This is because the old faculty was not deemed qualified by TRACS to provide grad theological education. You see, TRACS has the "strange" assumption that there is a correlation between the quality of a grad program and the faculty having accredited doctorates not unaccredited ones. Grad degrees are academic, so one does not qualify to teach in a grad program simply because he is a nice person , preaches well, or has an unaccredited doc.

    So, the new school brought its programs and faculty within the specifications of the TRACS requirements for accreditation. You can read these specifications on the TRACS site. Southern Calif Bible College and Seminary willingly allowed itself to be evaluated by an agency approved by the government to accredit. It did so for the purpose of improving that school's credibility, utility, quality, and rigor.
    --

    JASON:

    In my opinion, SCBCS also wanted their students to be able to receive federal and state loans (e.g. Stafford Loans).

    I'm very familiar with the church that gave birth to that seminary. It is a sound church with Dr. David Jeremiah at the helm. However, the school wasn't exactly my cup of tea. The entire atmosphere was very formal and even stuffy. I'm sure if a person wanted to be a 9 to 5 pastor in an old fashioned setting, then this would be a good place. I'm not seeking a pastoral job because I founded a 501(c)(3), non-profit organization called Jesus Christ Saves Ministries. You can see more here: http://www.jcsm.org .
    --

    But LBU has not taken up that challenge to acquire genuine accreditation although, at least at one point, it knowingly claimed false accreditation . By way comparison, Dr. Wallace , your PhD supervisor, by his degrees, unless I'm confusing him with another, is not even qualified to teach freshman Bible by the standards of the American Association of Bible Colleges..a recognized accreditor. I believe it was Wallace with whom I spoke once on the phone who told me that he had four docs...amazing! LBU will not submit itself to the scrutinty which that seminary on that El cajon hill welcomed.
    --

    JASON:

    I heard something about this false claim, but I haven't verified it.

    According to the handbook, Dr. Wallace has Doctorate degrees from Baptist Christian University, Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary, and Louisiana Baptist University. Perhaps he received another Doctorate that isn't listed or perhaps you are wrong.

    I'm in the external studies program, so Dr. Wallace is my advisor and not my professor. He is one of the Deans and I'm not sure if he teaches in Shreveport or not. However, regardless of what any organization says about him, I'm sure he would be a fine teacher. I'm certain that diligent Bible students could learn great things from his teachings and his experiences.
    --

    None of this is to say that LBU does not train ministers etc in adequate manners. My concern in this thread is that LBU is far and away different in its grad theological programs than accredited schools. My concern is whether academics in UA schools equal academics in US accredited evangelical schools. IMO with few exceptions they do not!
    --

    JASON:

    Since I'm new here, you'll have to explain to me the lingo like UA and US.

    --
    But as usual I write this with a tensions: the respect for those who do the rigor of accredited theological docs vs. the right of those to acquire docs in any other way they feel "led" ; the conviction that unaccredited docs are unlikely to provide a genuine doctoral rigor and that it requires generally profs with accredited docs to provide such rigor vs. the realization that unaccredited religious schools by the exemption given them legally are not required to parallel either the program or the faculty of accredited religious schools.
    --

    JASON:

    As I was mentioning earlier, one's career goals should be a major factor when determining which school to attend. For instance, if I only wanted to teach university students and if I wanted to teach immediately at a regionally accredited university like Point Loma Nazarene University, then I must get a Doctorate from a regionally accredited university. That is the cold, hard, and fast rule.

    On the other hand, if I want to run my own ministry and if I have found a wonderful source of education, then nothing is stopping me from getting education from the university of my choice. Furthermore, a university like Point Loma may even hire someone like me after I obtain years of education, multiple degrees, teaching experience, etc. even if I don't get a regionally accredited degree. I've alread taught at Coleman College, so I know there are exceptions even in the "superior" academic fields.

    One last thing that may be more important than everything else we have discussed is the university's Statement of Beliefs. I would NEVER attend a theological graduate school from a university like Cal Berkeley, UCLA, SDSU, etc. because they do not hold the Bible and Jesus Christ in high enough esteem. They do not affirm the Bible's inerrancy or the divinity of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I would receive false teachings; even from the "brilliant" professors at those institutions.
    --

    I'm sorry this is all so negative, let me now be positive. I'm grateful for your book on apologetics. I've not read it, but I'm sure it is helpful. I applaud your desire to learn Scripture even better. God bless you in your studies.
    --

    JASON:

    Thanks for your encouragement. I understand your desire to help and enlighten. As long as a person is educated about accreditation, considers what they will do with their degree (and career), and affirms the Statement of Beliefs before they attend, they should be able to make a wise decision.

    This page may be of interest to some. It's called Quality Christian Colleges. I made it because I've been asked about the best colleges and universities in America. Here is the link: http://www.jcsm.org/Contents/QCC.htm

    God bless,
    Jason
     
  20. Way

    Way New Member

    Hi Bill,

    LBU offers a course titled "Exegetical Theology" and two Greek courses. I'm afraid I cannot answer more than this. Perhaps Craig Hargis or Russel can shed better light on it than I.
     

Share This Page