Concord Law School

I read a lot of past emails on Concord Law School, but they were way long ago...I'm interested in restarting a train....A discussion on why one should or shouldn't attend a non ABA accredited institution such as Concord.

As for me, I think that it compliments my past education and foundation quite nicely and don't think that it will be difficult for me at all to practice as an attorney because:

1) I have an undergraduate degree from an accredited institution (BS in Biology) and graduated with a 3.2.

2) I have over 10 years experience testing proprietary software and pharmaceutical/food products.

3) I have my CSTE (Certified Software Test Engineer)

4) I have worked for several Fortune 500 companies throughout the US.

Do you really think that an intelligent law firm wouldn't hire me for lots of $$$$$ if I graduate from Concord with a high GPA and pass the CA bar? I don't think so....it's all in what you've chosen to do with your education ahead of time....takes planning.

 

The first thing that strikes me about your situation is that you could register as a Patent Agent NOW and as a Patent Attorney once you complete the California Bar process.

You're correct, I believe. As a Patent Attorney you could work anywhere you chose and there's a LOT of opportunity, especially in the life sciences. The pay is obscene.

A Concord degree would do for this scenerio.

Thing is, California considers Concord to be a "correspondence" school. There are other, older California correspondence programs with decent track records as far as California Bar admissions are concerned that are MUCH cheaper than Concord. My personal favorite, though I've never dealt with them, is Northwestern California University, www.nwculaw.edu

I like them because I like their price, the fact that they offer their local students some in-person teaching, the fact that their JD grads routinely pass the Bar, and the fact that they've been in business since the '70s IIRC.

They charge about one third of what Concord charges. Legally, the degrees are exactly equal except that Concord has DETC accreditation, I guess. I doubt that this will have much effect on the utility of the degree. Professionally, I suspect that they might prove to be nearly equal as well.

There are others, as well, including Taft, which is also DETC and SCUPS that will soon be DETC, as I understand it.

A law degree is a major investment in time and money. Any part-time program, whether ABA or not, whether correspondence or B&M, will consume four years of HARD work. A full time program, whether ABA or not, will consume three academic years with the resultant opportunity cost. An ABA degree from a state university MAY, but not necessarily MUST, cost more than the Concord degree.

Thing is, there are no doors closed with an ABA degree but there are MANY potential restrictions on the use of a non ABA degree.

Just be sure that the degree you earn will meet ALL of your anticipated needs.

 

Hi,

Thanks for your reply....that is EXACTLY my plan of action....Going to be a hard 4 years of study....I wish I could go to a traditional ABA approved school....but I already make a pretty good hunk of change, and I just can't part with it or my lifestyle for 3 years.

 

To become a Patent Attorney, it there a seperate exam?

Do you need to pass the Bar in any State and have a tech background (life science, engineering, etc.)?

 

Nosborne, how much better is a non-ABA accredited Law Degree but one that is Accredited by the California Bar e.g. Univ of Laverne or Ventura College of Law....does it make that much of a difference if any?

 

I am not a patent attorney.

There is a separate law and procedure examination to appear before the Patent Office in patent related matters. If one is an attorney, one is registered as a patent attorney. If one is not an attorney, one is registered as a patent agent.

In either case, one must present a regionally accredited (no DETC) B.S. in a hard science or engineering discipline or a certain number of hard science or engineering credit hours or evidence of having passed the EIT exam.

There are advantages to being a patent attorney rather than a patent agent in that the attorney may defend the patent in federal court. Actually, one needn't be a patent attorney to prosecute or defend a patent anywhere except before the patent office. Also, one must be an attorney to appear in Trademark and Copyright cases.

This exhausts my knowlege of the subject. I think the web site is www.uspto.gov

 

BobC,

As far as most state Bars are concerned, there is NO difference between a correspondence JD and a B&M JD from a non ABA school. Many states, such as my very own New Mexico, will permit the holder of a correspondence or otherwise non ABA degree to take the Bar once the holder has practiced law in California for a few years, usually four or five.

Other states, such as Kansas, say they won't admit anyone, ever, who lacks an ABA degree.

Texas DOES draw a distinction; no correspondence JD is ever acceptable. There may be others as well.

Funny you should mention LaVern. This is an RA school with a traditional curriculum. I knew a lawyer well once who graduated from there. The Bar here said, "Nope. Your JD isn't acceptable" He had to prove up four years of practice in California before they'd let him take the Bar here. Once he did, he passed, and enjoyed a very good reputation for many years here.

The main advantage to CA Bar approval is the the student is excused from having to take the FYLEX, the first year law student's exam, or Baby Bar.

 

FYI, Univ. La Verne College of Law was visited by the ABA Accd. Board on Oct.27 & 28. The final decision won't be available till next March. Yes, I graduated from ULV & passed the CA Bar first time. (my class passing rate was 72% or so). ULV College of Law is a small (less than 120 enrollment and that was the main reason for not getting the ABA accd.) but friendly learning community.


Paul Liu, Esq.
MBA OCU
JD ULV
Ph.D student (1/2 courses completed) NCU

 

Hi Nosborne,
Are you sure about the degree requirements re RA and DETC? I believe they (USPTO) are somewhat confused concerning what they will accept and what they will not. For instance, from their General Requirements Bulletin . First they state

then go on to later say

Some questions. Assuming the degree/courses are in a Category A subject.
Do they accept RA DL degrees/courses or not? (I think they do)
Would they accept DETC degrees/courses? (I think they do)
Am I sure? ( )

Tony

 

Yes, I am sure. I asked them once, even tried it myself. USPTO will accept D/L if and only if and only to the extent that an RA B&M program will accept it. In the hard sciences and engineering, it is very difficult to get any RA institution to accept D/L credits at the bachelorate level. Aye, there's the rub; if you try to present a graduate engineering or hard science degree, they require you to meet the individual undergrad credit hour requirements. They will not simply accept your Master of Engineering or whatever even if it comes from an ABET or RA school. They are very fussy about this.

 

I should have pointed out that the USPTO does have a path for nontraditional students, but it isn't much easier. If you can convince your state board of engineering to allow you to take the F/E exam, and you pass it, that is sufficient. Some states allow non ABET degree holders to take the F/E exam if they can show several years of work experience. Others, like New Mexico, require a degree.(New Mexico has an odd provision, however. An ABET BSET is good enought to TAKE the exam but you don't get the EIT certificate without two years of post grad work experience. A second oddity is that an ENGINEERING degree need not be ABET if the Board decides that it is "equivalent". I have no idea what that means.)

 

Back to stir it up a little more.

I think that when you get down to it, that an attorney that goes to a coorespondence school can indeed practice in all 50 states depending on the types of cases he or she would choose to argue.

My weak understanding of the way US courts are structured seems to indicate to me that I will be limited in which STATE courts that I may try cases in....but that if I only take issues regarding FEDERAL questions, that I can indeed practice in all 50 states with a coorespondence school degree....

Any counter arguements that i should consider?

 

I see from your other posts that you are now doing the Concord JD. Good luck to you! When do you take the Baby Bar?

It depends on what you mean by "practice". Correspondence outfits frequently say that any lawyer who is admitted to a state bar can practice in all federal courts anywhere. This is emphatically not true, if by "practice" you mean establish an office and accept clients.

A more correct statement would be that such a lawyer can APPEAR on an occasional basis in any federal court. This, as you probably know, is called "hac pro vice" appeacance. Actually, such a lawyer can probably appear hac pro vice in any STATE court, for that matter, in association with local counsel.

There is some case law indicating that, where the out-of-state lawyer gets admitted to the U.S. District Court bar of another state, he can establish an office in that state and take only federal clients. Maybe so, but that's a tricky business.

It is a violation of every state's legal ethics code to engage in or assist in the unauthorized practice of law. Holding oneself out to the public as an "attorney" is usually one of the acts constituting the practice of law. Now, if for example a California lawyer opens an office to handle bankruptcy cases in Honolulu and is admitted to practice before the U.S.District Court for Hawai'i , the California Bar might deem this "Unauthorized Practice of Law" and go after his California State license.

I do not suggest that in every case it CANNOT be done, but I know of situations where the attempt has resulted in serious discipline.

In general, any attorney engaging in the business of the regular practice of law in any given state needs to be a member of that state's bar.

 

That's good advice...and definitely something I will need to check out thoroughly (preferrably before I decide to take any such cases)

The likelihood that I would need or want any cases outside CA dealing with patent law is highly unlikely...and I'm thinking that most large companies do business in CA in some form...which means that CA would have venue for a given dispute where at least one of the parties to the case originated.

I believe that I will be scheduled to take the baby bar sometime during my second year of school...I start in January...I was supposed to start in October, but ran into some delays that caused me to defer until January....So I'm guessing I'll probably be taking it July of '05?

I've always wanted to be an attorney, but my family discouraged me...saying that they starve, etc....Well, I'm not seeing it....It depends on a variety of factors and it seems as if specialization is one of those main factors.

My main pitfall will be that I am a woman, or so I hear...but I'm used to that.....Like engineering/science is not much the same....

Just an opportunity to make money in a field that I actually like for once...

I think that I'm actually going to like the structure of the "classroom" provided by Concord...I think that though the other correspondence schools might be cheaper, they also require more organization and discipline....of which I'm not necessarily lacking, but my current field, along with good pay is very, very stressful. I need to be automatically put on a schedule so I stay on track and know that my progress is "in-line" with what I should learn...

So you are studying for your Master's in Law, is that correct? Where are you studying, and if you don't mind--why did you choose to go further with your studies?

 

Why would being a woman be a problem

60% of the students in law school today are women.

 

Oh!!! By the way, I noticed that you are from New Mexico...Funny thing, I was born and raised in Santa Fe. Believe it or not, I come from a long line of Judges/Attorneys/govt people that reside in New Mexico:

Peso Chavez (former SF Mayor) Cousin
Cuate' Chavez (former SF Judge) Great Uncle
Fabian Chavez (former State Legistator) Great Uncle
Tony Chavez (former Judge in CA) Great Uncle

very small world....

 

Hi Chris,

That's just what I've heard from women in the ranks in their speeches such as Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and on the opposite end of the coin, Sandra Day O'Connor. I hear that you can be a student, but that men get preferencial consideration for the good jobs like Senior Partner at a major firm....Look at the statistics at places like Fitch and Neave.

 

Fish & Neave...sorry...typing too fast.

 

People up for partner are from a different time

Things will be much different when you reach that point. If you were to compare the number of women in law school when O'Connor and Ginsberg were law students with the fact they are both now on the Supreme Court it would appear they are doing pretty well. Ginsberg is a huge liberal and will find discrimination around every corner regardless of the facts. Ginsberg also thinks DL law schools are a discredit to the law profession so if you are going to pay any attention to her you better drop out of Concord. Pay no attention to her. Ask your peers, not some fogey that is still living in the past. If you have a family at home, that, and the fact you will be a lawyer from a DL law school will be much greater obstacles to success than the simple fact you are a woman.

 

I would hope so Chris, but I'm talking even about statistics as they stand today....

http://www.fishneave.com/f_site/recruit/demo.htm

This link will take you to fish & neaves' demographics....not very promising. They are "the best" in patent law....