Poll: Louisiana Baptist University

How would you rate Louisiana Baptist University (http://www.lbu.edu/), an unaccredited religious institution affiliated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship International? See below for category descriptions.

Yes, I know, the categories will not suit some members (maybe no one!). Base you vote on your knowledge of LBU’s history and current status. Comments and explanations welcome.

Good – quality academics and institutional standards (a & i), high level of integrity in purpose & claims regarding recognition and utility (p & cru), relative ease of achieving accreditation if sought.

Mediocre – some obvious areas less than accredited standards of (a & i), generally good integrity in (p & cru), some significant changes needed to achieve accreditation but reasonably achievable.

Poor – many/most areas significantly less in (a & i), highly questionable integrity in (p & cru), monumental changes needed & accreditation unlikely.

Also, has it been said on this forum that LBU has claimed to be seeking recognized accreditation? I thought so, but could not find that mentioned. They still claim “full institutional approval from the Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools.”

I was wondering if I should have done such a poll for Bethany of Dothan instead of the survey, or should still do such a poll. What do you think?

 

I know this is not the exact subject. But I wonder to what extent the definitions of phrases like "quality academics" in doctoral theological , not ministerial, studies could be agreed upon here with our...ummm... eclectic representation.

Here's part of my definition of a good , but unaccredited, doc in Biblical Studies program.


First, what does it take to get into the PhD/ThD program in Biblical Studies?

My experience at Unizul, and my hard copy catalogue of same, says that to enter the ThD/DPhil there requires an accredited masters. If that masters does not indicate thorough preparation by transcripts, then additional coursework is required. Further, the applicant must have completed an academic thesis in the master's program. This evidences along with transcripts of accredited work the applicant's ability to do genuine doc work. If the UZ doc is in Biblical studies, as Old Testament or New Testament ,then there is a prerequisite in languages too. Of course, this is also the case in US Seminaries as DTS or The Masters. Even the ThM prerequisites at Western included a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek ,along with GPA, before admission. That should suggest just how far behind some unaccredited seminary PhD/ThD programs lag. The idea of a quality doc in Bible being done when one cannot even use the languages of the Bible and thus access the best tools and interact with the best literature thus providing respectability to the student's written products is a sham IMO.

In review, prerequisites for entering the doc program in that GAAP school includes:

1) accredited masters
2) academic thesis completed
3) thorough preparation by coursework
4) languages suitable to the area of study


Now why should the entrance requirements be so significant?

Simply because, if the pool of doctoral students consists of applicants who really have not at all demonstrated an ability to do genuine doctoral work in master's studies which precede the doctoral program, then why would anyone think that the work they do in the doctoral program is likely to be at a genuine doctoral level?

How one's success in real doctoral level work in Biblical Studies can be predicted when the only academic prerequisite is an unaccredited master's is beyond the ken of both Unizul and accredited US seminaries.

So, one criterion in comparing LBU or any unaccredited school's quality with accredited schools should be:

1) What does it take to get into the doc program? If it does not take much, then I would not value that program much!

The gate should be narrow!



But now supper beckons, so I'll dazzle you later with my erudition...ha!

 

The synoptical brilliance of your brain cells always dazzles me!

 

Bill,
Yes, I have noticed that many of the "less than wonderful" schools have very wide gates to get into doctoral programs. You are right, that is very telling.

 

From the 2003-2004 LBU catalog:

A Master of Divinity, plus familiarity with the Biblical languages, are prerequisites for the 45 hour Th.D. program.

The LBU M.Div. requires 90 hours:

27 hours in biblical studies (1 year Greek & 1 year Hebrew)
24 hours in theological & historical studies
30 hours in practical ministries
9 hours for thesis

 

Russell,
Thanks for the update from the new catalogue, for which I am waiting. Your post and a few things on their website (some strengthening of faculty) show improvement on LBU's part since the last time I took a look at them. The 1 year of Hebrew and Greek for the M.Div. is a little wimpy, but I have noticed that some accredited seminaries are getting weak on the languages (not the cream of the crop, however). Hopefully the catalogue clarifies even more trouble spots, like a few of these on their website:
1) besides the Th.D. which you noted the graduate department still offers a Doctor of Philosophy in Biblical Studies which "normally require 45-60 credit hours of work beyond the Masters degree or 90 credit hours beyond the Bachelors degree." They seem to have a 30-45 credit hour Masters degree in mind for a prerequisite for the Ph.D. in Biblical Studies. This is well bellow the expectation of recognized accreditors.
2) a Master of Theological Studies which "requires a minimum of 36 semester hours, a portion of which may be practicum credits for reported and evaluated ministry." This is below the ATS standard of a 2 year (60-64 cr. hrs.) requirement for such a program (the M.T.S. or M.A. (TS) is not to be confused with the Th.M., a 1 year post-M.Div. degree)
3) the catalogue states that the Th.D. requires, "a Master of Divinity degree (90-hours) or equivalent, plus familiarity with the Biblical languages, are prerequisites for the 45-hour Th.D. program. Applicants with only a 36-45 hour Master's degree in Bible, theology or religion may be accepted into the 60-hour Th.D. program, with some possible makeup studies being required " This is a little bit of a concern as well, for it again is below the accredited standard.

Or course there are others, but it is late and I need to give it a break.

 

The LBU MA is a 36 hour program, 30 hours of coursework and a 6 hour thesis. Many Ph.D. programs allow admission with an MA.

LBU's catalog states, regarding the 45-60 hour Ph.D. program:

The University demands excellence in scholarship, including the ability to do effective independent research...The program culminates in an original work [150 page minimum] representing a significant contribution in their field of study...The person admitted to the Ph.D. program must have the appropriate academic background as well as the initiative and self-discipline and the research skills necessary to succeed in such a program.

 

===

As Alan says, the languages are weak. One does not do exegesis until the second year in my experience. One hardly could do a dissertation well in Bible without constant reference to the text in the original (s). The assumptions made in such an attempt likely could be easily over turned by questions elicited from the Heb/Grk not answered or even acknowledged in the English. . Therefore a liitle beef up there would be good. Still this is better than some unaccredited programs I've looked at recently. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction on LBU's part.

I also like the 51 hours in Biblical /Theological studies as part of the MDiv.

Then the 9 hour thesis could be respectable although my hunch is that amount of credit is much padded. Either that or I got cheated! I worked a year in my ThM thesis "The Pauline Referent in Baptismal Passages" and only got 4 units credit!

Thanks for the info,

 

I went there

I have a degree from LBU, a Th.D. I entered with an accredited (UC) M.A. and about 120 additional grad units. I would characterize the school simply as good. LBU is not by any means an excellent school or even a very good school, (but few DL institutions are). Put simply, LBU is reasonably solid. The work is substantive without question. There is a pretty solid amount of required reading, and a very significant writing requirement--often 40-75 pages per class. It would seem to me that the writing needs to be fairly good too. I did not get the feeling they would accept seriously substandard work. The staff is quite helpful; the instructors seem generally competent. Every professor I talked to had a deeply impressive knowlege of the Bible itself (at least in English) as many appeared to have virtually memorized it. True to its BBF roots, LBU is seriously focused on scripture. The academic level of the classes I attended on campus roughly approximated classes at an RA school at a generally post-graduate level. Where LBU is very good is in combining academic and devotional aspects of study in a DL format--not an easy thing to do. It is a very Christ-centered school; so for a working pastor it might be more desirable than an "academic" seminary that has a less than fervent devotional character. It is too a distinctly Baptist school. It has a quiet but very real KJV leaning and a rather strong missionary bias. It is designed for the most part to provide additional education and expanded academic resources for the working Baptist preacher--in this I think it does as good a job as can be done in a DL format. Personally, I like LBU's brand of fundamentalism; it is real but not overbearing; confident in the ultimate veracity of the Bible, but not pushy--and I think genuinely at task to improve the intellectual level of the fundamental Baptist movement--of which it is an institution. The best thing about LBU as a university is that it really does get better every year. With its new campus and its pretty impressive fund raising ability, it seems to be going in the direction of a Pensacola Christian--or at least a Luther Rice Seminary.

Blessings

 

Craig,
Thanks for the comments. The above is particularly interesting, for I have been a part of the IFB for over 15 years. What the IFB movement needs is more that are seeking to do such. To many IFB schools are mickey mouse and anti-intellectual, and their students don't fall far from the vine, so to speak.

 

re: LBU poll

I have recently enrolled at LBU and one of the introductory courses I am taking involves reading the textbook plus an additional 500 pages of collateral reading. Accompanying that is a 276 question study exam as well as twelve (12) writing assignments. After completing the assignments, I must return them all to LBU at which time they will send me a final exam which must be taken under the supervision of a proctor. I know, and expect that graduate studies need to be more rigorous than those of an undergrad program and I can say that having attained my B.S. from the State University of New York, LBU demands more, MUCH MORE, than SUNY ever did. (Which is my way of saying that SUNY is mediocre at best.)

 

This site, developed by an LBU student, highlights a number of LBU alumni:

www.jcsm.net/LBU/LBUAlumni.htm

After operating for 30 years in a leased complex, LBU has recently purchased its own facility.

www.lbu.edu/newsreleases.htm

 

Russell,
Yes, I was looking at the alumni site yesterday. They have some interesting ones.

 

Way- Your comments are helpful. Criticisms I make generally apply to grad work.



Craig- As I recall your dissertation was in dispensationalism and that you did much work on it.

Would you say that your dissertation used significant primary and secondary sources, debated the best minds in the field, addressed a previously unsolved problem, and by substantial research contributed toward solving that problem, and that the dissertation based its conclusions on sound exegeses of the text in the original languages?


To All: I am also interested in what motivates one who wishes only to pastor a church to get a PhD or ThD in Bible/Theology instead of getting a degree in Pastoral Theology.


BTW, My theology is conservative Baptist mostly.

 

I hope others will chime in on what Way had to say as compared to their masters work. The work seems substantial in quantity. Now the quantity of work does not tell the whole story, for large amounts of work does not equate to quality graduate level work. Craiq suggested the quality of work was good (not excellent, but not poor, if I understand him right) for his Th.D. at LBU.

As for me, I pulled out the requirements from my courses for my M.A. from Briercrest Biblical Seminary. One prof. required 1200 pages of reading per class, but the other assignments often did not require as much reading. Other classes had similar or slightly less required reading than Way mentions, but there was substantial extra reading for the projects.
I did an independent study in "The OT and Biblical Criticism" in which the required reading was about 1500 pages, as well as 2 projects with a minimum total of 50 pages of writing (which meant more reading, and in the end 56 pages of writing).

This was a quote from LBU's current catalogue regarding the Ph.D. I would be interested in comments on this as well. At the M.A. or M.Div. level at Briercrest when I was attending there, the minimum was 100 pages for a thesis. I will have to do 30,000 words (?120? pages) for my thesis from S.A.T.S, and because I am doing a structured program I will do a minimum of 62,000 words of writing for the program. Unizul has told me (I am looking seriously at entering there after S.A.T.S.) that the D.Th. dissertation would be a minimum of 60,000 words. On another tread on this forum someone mentioned that a usual accredited doctorate disseration is a minimum of 250 pages.
All this makes LBU's standard for the Ph.D. look a little weak. I wonder if their Th.D. program requires more.

 

Yes, Russell, that is true of accredited secular programs in NA. However, for accredited theological institutions the M.Div. is usually the minimum requirement (usually requiring 60 cr. hrs. at the Ph.D/Th.D. level). Until recent years the more common requirement was the Th.M. (4 years for D.T.S., M.Div. + 1 year for most others) for entrance into a 32 or so cr. hr. Ph.D./Th.D.
These standards are true of the only North American R.A. DL Ph.D. in Biblical Studies at this time (Baptist Bible Seminary, http://www.bbc.edu/seminary/doctor_of_philosophy.htm).
After talking with them, they would accept me into that program with my 2 yr. M.A., but I would have to make up the extra year, so the Ph.D. would be about 90 cr. hrs.
BTW, I would love to do the BBS program after S.A.T.S., but I am not rolling in/through/on/around the money, so can't (remember, I am a Canadian, so I get burnt on the exchange as well, those rotten Americ....just joking )

 

Non-US research doctorates typcially require longer theses/dissertations, e.g., 60-100,000 words. Keep in mind that the degree is earned via thesis/dissertation alone, no coursework. The LBU Ph.D. requires (according to the catalog) a dissertation of either 50,000 words or 150 pages. This only partially fulfills the degree requirements, which stipulate 30-45 hours in coursework, plus the 15 hour dissertation.

 

Poll results thus far

I am a little surprised with the results thus far. I figured the results they would be on the mediocre to poor side on this forum. However, I do not know much about them, so maybe my perspective is way out.

 

Bill: About my dissertation. In my opinion very few dissertations really make substantive advancement in their field. (We could debate this opinion forever, I realize.) I think dissertations are generally much over celebrated. Most simply rehash a great deal of secondary material around a usually somewhat pedestrian thesis. I think my dissertation was a very solid review of how dispensationalists--and non-dispensationalists have reacted to, modified, challenged, and revised LS Chafer's original (1947) Systematic Theology. While I don't know if it was really original, I think it is a solid and sustained critical review of the field of dispensationalism today. I think it would be a useful general reference for students of dispensationalism, especially those who were not educated on Chafer's ST. It was long,(about 650 pages) but only because I worked directly from Chafer's entire text chapter by chapter. It was kind of a "update" of dispensational thinking across the whole of Chafer's systematics. I cited a great many works, well over a hundred, I think. Because it was a study of Chafer more than the Bible itself there was very little reference to original languages, except where such references were made in my secondary sources. The experience was enriching, and I honestly think the dissertation would have been accepted at an accredited school. As I have said many times, LBU is not a top level school, but it is without question a school that at the very least approximates the level of at least some accredited schools. All in all, I think the degree is of some real value. I have experienced no problem with mine, but then again I have used it primarily in BBF circles. In ending let me say the problem with dissertations is that nobody reads them--not even the dissertator. As I sit here, I realize I have not looked at mine since I got back from Shreveport two years ago. Maybe I should go read it now--nah.

Blessings

 

Alan: Hi. Just by way of conversation, I don't think LBU's 150 page figure is all that anemic in that I have seen a number of less than 200 page dissertations when I was at UCR--which is certainly accredited though I am not sure why . My Vista University (South Africa) director mentioned something about 150-250 pages.

Blessings,

Craig