Divining the Dilemma in Dothan: A Test of Sincerity

This is not at all to call Bethany in Alabama a mill or to question the character of any connected with that school. I only write as one very concerned with theological education who wishes the discipline to be taught as well as possible.

Some might raise the eyebrow over a mere 20,000 (minimum) word PhD dissertation being acceptable at Bethany.

Some might wonder about the propriety of Bethany awarding the ThD for about the same amount of work as the accredited common pastoral degree, the MDiv.

Some might wonder about the absence at Bethany of any language requirements at even the doctoral level in Bible.

Some might question giving PhDs in Religion when not even one prof there at Bethany has an accredited PhD/ThD in Religion.

Some might question, therefore, Bethany saying at the same time these conditions described above are practiced that the Bethany grad degrees nevertheless allow one to do "quality research" and to genuinely "contribute to the field of Theology."

Of course such of quality contributions could be qualified into really meaning very little at all. But in academia, seemingly a suitable context as Bethany is a school, I assure you, this claim would mean something fairly definitive and objective as ,eg, contributions in accepted, standard theological or Biblical journals, lexicons, dictionaries, exegetical commentaries, or systematic theologies and the like. But in vain would one look in these places for much at all in Bethany grad contributions.

But obviously, some work is being required there. I guess if Bethany has not needed as yet to answer to any real accreditor, then questions regarding such very large inconsistencies it has with known norms practiced in accredited US seminaries can be answered , at least to Bethany's own satisfaction and the satisfaction of Bethany's students and supporters, by saying something like , "We are no secular institution" or "What we do works for us."

But now, Bethany has affiliate status with the government approved national accreditor, undergrad only, of Bible colleges, the AABC. The complexion of things may somewhat change depending on the purpose of that affiliation, which brings us to this "divination."

As Jimmy has openly and honestly said, to his credit, this affiliation with AABC really means very little. No evaluation at all of Bethany's program is done to attain this status. No estimate at all is made of Bethany's potential to get accredited;neither is an estimate made by AABC of Bethany's actual intent to get accredited, unless I'm mistaken. So, does this move really mean that Bethany is sincere about actually pursuing AABC accreditation?

If that is what it means , then allow me as one who loves to talk about those very few things he knows anything about, to observe that there is the problem, the dilemma, of the academic qualifications of the core faculty who are said to teach Theology/Bible. No one there at Bethany's core faculty is presently qualified by AABC norms to teach even freshman Bible/Theology , yet they have for years taught even doctoral level Bible/Theology. Isn't it too bad that some seminary like Western doesn't give ThMs just for experience?



AABC says the norm for teaching Bible/Theology in its accredited schools is the , by ATS standards, four year, about 120 semester unit, two languages, thesis, masters called: the"ThM." BTW, the ThM at Bethany hardly resembles this degree! This fact that this "lowly" NA accreditor recommends a 120 unit ThM, not a 30-60 unit MA , to teach Bible should suggest the rigor expected in accredited theological education! That is a rigor often avoided by some unaccredited theological schools. AABC wants an accredited ThM too!

So, the dilemma in Dothan now referenced is that none of the core faculty listed as teaching Bible/Theology have an accredited ThM in Bible /Theology. But, to give the dilemma and teeth, is second, Jimmy was kind enough to share here the chancellor of Bethany own thoughts which decried a degreeinfo member for questioning Bethany's sincerity with the words, "You, sir, do not know our mind." From these thoughts by Shuemake it may be divined that Bethany is indeed sincere about getting AABC accreditation.

I would not want to think that the folks at Bethany are just using the AABC affiliation as a creel to catch prospective students or as a camouflage for deficiencies. I would rather think that Bethany is sincere about getting accredited and so plans to initiate changes to accomplish that post haste. While few here know the intricacies of the Bethany programs, we all can read the faculty roster and witness there changes made to conform to AABC standards.

Now ,as some here know, the very Bible which Bethany gives its doctorates in suggests that works are what evidence sincerity. Obviously the work needed in the context of this discussion is to have the Bible/Theology profs at Bethany be qualified as per AABC norms.

This is a suitable test and a divination of Bethany's sincerity to acquire AABC accreditation---get qualified Bible/Theology profs!

If very visible steps are not taken to effect this change in faculty, then will prevent the justification of a divination of insincerity? Without works, faith is dead and by their fruits shall you know them.

 

Bill, you are a little more positive than I am, for I really do wonder if Bethany is "just using the AABC affiliation as a creel to catch prospective students or as a camouflage for deficiencies." Now, as anyone can notice, that reflects my personal hesitancy about the issue. However, this hesitancy is built on Bethany's track record. Anyone can read on their forum that they once listed ACI as their accreditor, "pursued" accreditation with TRACS, and applied to NAPNSC. ACI was bogus, NAPNSC is HIGHLY questionable, and from what I had been told, they opted out of TRACS because of what they had to change, do, and give up.
Now, in order to even apply to AABC, they will have to make huge changes to faculty, and changes in other areas as well. Yet, they have let it be know on this board that initial paper work would be sent to the AABC in early September past, and that they had been in converstation with the AABC for " some time now". Surely such conversations would have made clear some of the obvious changes that are needed, and there would be some evidence of movement on their part by now.
Is is possible they will "catch" some students with such words, and then easily pull out of their "application" process when it becomes clear they will not make the substantial changes needed?
I hope not, but I am concerned that something smells a little fishy around here! Is something rotten in the state of Denmark...I mean in Dothan?

Amen, and Amen!

 

Re: Re: Divining the Dilemma in Dothan: A Test of Sincerity

Hi, Bill,

Hope you are doing well today. I tried to answer your other post but have not been able to post. I hope this makes it. I will try to remember your questions. I am not privy to what Bethany will or will not do concerning accreditation. I do run the board but I created it after making sure it was all right with Dr. Shuemake and the Board of Directors. I have misspoken many times and probably should keep my mouth shut when it comes to Bethany and accreditation.

I really do want Bethany to become accredited. I think this will be good for current and prospective students. For myself, I don't care. I know I worked hard for my degrees and I know myself. I know I am capable as a counselor and pastor. I don't think anyone who reads my posts can accuse me of being illiterate, inarticulate, below average intelligence, or someone who is not well-schooled and learned. I would say that from now on any questions regarding Bethany's pursuit of accreditation should be addressed to Bethany.

One may find email addresses on their site. As I stated earlier, I agree with you on all the changes Bethany will have to make. By the way, Bethany does have Th.D.'s and Th.M.'s with accredited degrees. They are not all listed on the web site but are in the catalog. I do believe, however, Dr. O'Donnell is on the web site. His Th.D. is from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

I do admire you and your posts. You are truly concerned about the nature and intricacies of theological education and I commend that. You have never posted to puff yourself up showing off your knowledge. You have never validated yourself by belittling others. You have never resorted to foul language, a characteristic of a limited vocabulary, that many try to compensate with cornpone, country bumpkin, galluses-snapping jocularity. You do not set out to destroy institutions and lives.

You are not a miscreant or malcontent. You don't delight in others' misfortunes and you don't gloat when someone or some institution makes mistakes or falls on hard times. You have a true heart for the Lord and all His glory. You don't question Bethany or any other unaccredited school to tear them down but to have a positive influence and offer suggestions and ideas to help them have better programs and reputations.

I don't know what Bethany will do. I can only hope and pray they move in right and honorable paths and will have learned from some mistakes and blunders of the past. Whether these mistakes and blunders were intentional, only Bethany and the Lord know.

I think all of us who truly walk in the light of love, compassion, mercy, grace, and forgiveness need to wait and see what happens and give Bethany a chance. Perhaps those who are the most critical need to examine their own lives in light of repentance (in the truest sense of metanoia) and be more careful in their rushes to judgment when a school or an individual tries to change.

Again, Bill, I thank you for being you! May He continue to bless you and your studies.

 

Jimmy

I too am having problems with posting.

Thankyou for those kind words, but some I do not deserve.

You may not know that my first experience with theological training was the unaccredited-Linda Vista. It now is Southern Calif Theological Seminary, or something like that, and is TRACS accredited.

I do wish the best for Bethany, and by that I mean that Bethany acquires accreditation. As you said, were this to happen then changes need to be made.

 

Jimmy, could you give us these. I would be very intested to know the who, what, and where. Thanks.

 

Re: Re: Divining the Dilemma in Dothan: A Test of Sincerity

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Surely. BTW, Bill, nice alliteration!

This is from the 2002-2003 catalog. I believe Bethany has hired some new faculty. I will find out. The new catalog should be forthcoming.

Dr. O'Donnell, Th.D., New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
Dr. Knoblet, M.Th., Denver Bapt. Theol. Sem. (LRS, D.Min.)

And a plethora of M.Div.'s, D.Min.'s, M.A.R.'s, Ph.D.'s, D.R.E.'s from accredited schools.

I know this is not sufficient; I do know that!

But, again, if accreditation is pursued, the changes will be made or they will not get accredited. It's as simple as that.

 

quote:
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By the way, Bethany does have Th.D.'s and Th.M.'s with accredited degrees. They are not all listed on the web site but are in the catalog.
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Before anyone questions this, I did not mean to use the plural. I have had so much trouble posting I didn't want to take a chance to edit and then not get it reposted.

 

Jimmy

The Bethany site says only profs with accredited degrees are Dept heads over the several tracks. Now Bethany offers a ThD in what by the coursework listed appears to be in Systematic Theology and it offers the PhD in Bible where the courses are in OT,NT and such.

Could you tell me please the names of the Dept heads over those two areas who have accredited docs in Bible and in Theology? Their docs are in those subjects are they not?

Thanks,

 

Jimmy

The Bethany site says only profs with accredited degrees are Dept heads over the several tracks. Now Bethany offers a ThD in what by the coursework listed appears to be in Systematic Theology and it offers the PhD in Bible where the courses are in OT,NT and such.

Could you tell me please the names of the Dept heads over those two areas who have accredited docs in Bible and in Theology? Their docs are in those subjects are they not?

Thanks,

 

I have two points I'd like to make despite the fact that I have no real experience or understanding of the idiosyncracies of religious education in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter). The first is that there are many examples of tenured faculty in RA schools who do not teach in the area in which they received their doctoral degrees. The first that comes to mind is Richard Rorty who has a PhD in Philosophy yet teaches within the area of Literature. I'm sure he supervises doctoral students and I'm sure their disertations are just fine. The idea that this is somehow OK in the secular world but not Ok in the non-secular world is a puzzle to me. Can you help? Now if the staff are somehow not qualified to teach at all, then I can see that there would be a problem. It is unclear to me however, what would have to be the case in order for someone to be judged to be entirely un qualified to teach. It would have to be pretty bad. (I would mention here that I once took a course in an RA school where the instructor had no college degree of any sort. He knew quite a bit and was pretty good a getting it across to others.
My second point is related to the doctoral dissertations themselves. We recently went through a "discussion" regarding Knightsbridge University and one of the turning points was the general unavailability of their dissertation "database." Without being able to examine the dissertations themselves it was impossible to determine if they satisfied the basic criteria for doctoral level research. Is this the case with Bethany? Can these dissertations be examined? Are thet available through UMI or some other database? If they're "up to snuff" then that is that. If they're not then that is also sufficient indication of inadequacy. In both of these scenarios the degrees of the staff are basically irrelevant. What is most important is the quality of the work for which the doctoral degrees are awarded. No?
Jack

 

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Hello Jack

A good question. Of course the hook we are here hanging the requisite on is the accreditor's own standard. AABC thinks that one who teaches Bible/Theology should have the ThM , minimum, in Bible /Theology. But let's open this up to see if a general practice exists.

It is the case, as far I know, that to teach grad courses in Bible in accredited seminaries requires a grad degree in Bible. This opining can be easily supported. First, one might look at the Newsletter of the Evangelical Theological Society where schools advertising positions specify their requirement. A second source of evidence would be to scan faculty seminary rosters. I think the general rule will be in evidence there as well.

Jack, there is so very much to know and understand in Biblical/Theological education that specialties are a must in doctoral level studies. This specialization makes it less likely that one qualified in a different discipline could effectively teach in that particular theological area. One majors in New Testament or Old Testament or Systematic Theology or Church History and/or Dogmatics and so forth.

Of course some classes in religious studies are cognate with secular disciplines. A Prof of Systematic Theology may have a masters in Theology, but a PhD in Philosophy. The reason is the overlap in content at least from the ST side. Hartshorne and Augustine and Aquinas, as examples, might be studied in either discipline. Or, a prof of Church History might have a doc in History. Or a prof in Christian Education might have a doc in Education. Or a prof in Homiletics might have a PhD in Speech. Or a prof in Pastoral; Counseling might have a doc in Psychology. However, "Sociology", as Sherman's , is not cognate to either to Bible or to Theology in this exemplied manner!

But "Bible" I think you would find different. I would be very interested to see a list of profs who teach doc level English Bible, Old Testament, or New Testament in RA accredited seminaries who do not have docs in those areas. I would be happy to eat lots of crow if one could among the scores of US and Canadian seminaries find three persons in them who do!



I think your idea on examining dissertations is a good point, but what will be the criteria? Will these dissertations be evaluated by people at degreeinfo with accredited grad degrees in the area of the dissertation or who at least regularly read research in the field or who themselves are actually doing such research?

I wonder how many people here would be able to evaluate my dissertation at least in terms of following my exegetical argumentations, my discussions of the patristics, or the doctrinal syntheses I make in my methodology.

Or would this be a free for all, which has happened here, where any criticism is taken as a prideful attack on a person rather than as a genuine desire to uphold high standards in theological education?

Anyone interested in how such a free for all can easily occur here should search this forum for Walston's Potch dissertation.

Still, I do like your idea. Thanks for joining in the thread. I hope my answers were fair and to the point.

 

I have no direct experience with Bethany. I do know they require substantive amounts of work. That this "substantive work" is as substantive as school X or school Y (accredited or unaccredited) I don't know. I do know this: I have attended and graduated from three major BM/RA schools where the programs (I was in) could only be called "rigorous" if one simply lied. Graduate school in the humanities is simply not that hard. Period. One can get an MA in religion at at least three secular RA schools within driving distance of my house in SoCal without ANY Biblical study at all and perhaps only very flimsy language requirements. The language requirements in two departments at UC campuses I attended were not a joke exactly, but were not at all difficult.

The problem with holding Bethany and other unaccredited schools that try (more or less) to offer a real program to these highly rigorous standards of substantive study is that in most cases we don't hold RA schools to those same standards either--except on paper. I would not say graduate school was easy. I would say it was easier than the undergratuate program (which was by no means challenging). So why does Bethany have to offer some draconian program that is rigorous beyond measure?

We criticize Bethany for weak course work, no language requirements, modest dissertation requirements and so on. But no one here criticizes any number of Anglo/So African/ or other international GAP programs that require NOTHING other than a dissertation--and not a very long one at that. One can get a MTh and ThD (both by thesis only) and probably noy write more than 350 pages total. I am certain a Bethany Th.D. would require more than a total of 350 pages of writing--would it not?

Just some thoughts.

Blessings,

Craig

 

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Hi Craig



1- In my experience too in the EdD at OSU most courses were not nearly as difficult as those in Theology.

2- By contrast peruse the Western 60 hour MA in Exegetical Theology which requires both Hebrew and Greek as I recall.


3- These standards are established and practiced by those schools accredited by AABC and ATS. It is that standard ,I guess ,Bethany wishes to meet as Bethany seeks, I understand, AABC accreditation and makes its own claims regarding rigor.

Can you show me evangelical RA/ATS seminaries where the standards [as accredited docs for profs, Biblical languages for Biblical docs etc] I would impose on Bethany-if I could-are not practiced?



4- For a ThM or PhD in Bible, ie, NT,OT at UZ language is required.

My dissertation , that as you say, " NOTHING but" in my case is a thesis written over three years, I hope, which will be read by profs from three SA universities who will evaluate my product on terms of rigorous interaction with the best literature and its innovative contributions. My Promoter warns me that I must defend my positions well.

Prior to my entering the ThD at UZ I've completed work for three accredited masters degrees in Bible/Theology of ascending rigor .

If you want to see a critism of SA work, my friend, join me in the Golden Thread of the Walston Potch dissertation where I believe you yourself thwarted Ed's and my criticisms of a South African dissertation.


5- Actually I think coursework may required at UZ often both for the ThM and for doc work unless the applicant is deemed thoroughly prepared. But your 350 sounds about right.


6- No, I think 20,000 or about 80 pages is acceptable at Bethany for both the ThD and the PhD. Or did you mean with all the class papers ? If so, I think the class paper is not a suitable comparison with the dissertation.


Craig, I will gladly make the same criticisms of any school that I make about Bethany. If you can show me where I've judged schools in capricious manners or with double standards , then I'll admit that fault.

Glad to hear from you,

 

Dr. H. Fred Willaims is head of the Department of Biblical Theology. He holds an M.Div. and M.R.E. from New Orleans BTS. He holds the Th.M. and Th.D. from LRS. He also holds an M.A. from Stetson.

I was wrong about Dr. Sherman, he is Chair of the Department of Educational Theology.

The Chair of the Department of Ministry Theology is Dr. Austin Phillips who holds the M.Div. and D.Min. from LRS.